ICP test results vs. Hobby Grade!!!

[Focustronic_Jonas]

WHY are these results so different?!? Makes me not know who to trust.....

ICP


Mag: 943.99
Calc: 285.8
Phosphorus: .11

Hanna Po4: .07
Salifert Calc: 380
Salifert Mag: 1350

what the heck?!? yea I still need to raise up my levels a lil bit and lower P04 a bit more(working on it) but idk who to trust. ICP came back super low across the board, trace elements included but the phosphurus showed up higher which isthe only accuracy because mine the Hanna checker can be plus/minus .04. But if ICP is indeed accurate then our hobby grade test kits ain’t worth crap!

Very good question as it’s theoretically only one way to know who is right. Make a sample of a reference fluid with known concentrations.
also an icp can failure as much as everyone else as that also a machine that has to be calibrated correct. Everything can happens in also good hands. The good with icp is that IF it’s doing correct it’s very correct but it still requires perfect handling of human hands. I have personally good experience with icp and only one off results and that test the company redid.
the manual tests you can control within its “semi bad” accuracy but that’s good enough in most cases. So as those shows very reasonable results I would actually suspect an issue with the icp in this case. Go back to the company and just ask for a new test as a double check. That is how I should do.
Jonas

 

[Dan_P]

WHY are these results so different?!? Makes me not know who to trust.....

ICP


Mag: 943.99
Calc: 285.8
Phosphorus: .11

Hanna Po4: .07
Salifert Calc: 380
Salifert Mag: 1350

what the heck?!? yea I still need to raise up my levels a lil bit and lower P04 a bit more(working on it) but idk who to trust. ICP came back super low across the board, trace elements included but the phosphurus showed up higher which isthe only accuracy because mine the Hanna checker can be plus/minus .04. But if ICP is indeed accurate then our hobby grade test kits ain’t worth crap!

Three potential serious problems with ICP tests: no published 95% confidence interval, lack of error detection, and sample degradation during shipping.

Unless an ICP test vendor supplies you with a 95% confidence interval for their measurements, you have no way of knowing how accurate and variable the results are. There can be hundreds of testimonials and claims by the vendor about reliability, but they are worthless in understanding the accuracy.

Mistakes can happen in testing and interpreting analytical data. When vendor uses computer software to measure the peak heights in a spectrum but has no quality system in place to catch software mistakes and “weird“ readings you will receive incorrect data.

And finally, samples degrade during shipping. The subject of sample preservation in water analysis is very important. The preservation method chosen depends on what is being measured. When a sample is stored, biological and chemical changes can remove elements from the sample. Phosphorous is a good example. ICP methods typically give lower results than measured by the aquarist.

The hobby community has acquired a respect for ICP results that might not be warranted.

 

[Amado]

This is why we can’t have nice things.
Icp test fails are probably less than 10%
But here we are here saying it’s bad.

Somebody reads this thread and decides not to do an icp
Test. A lot of people have been helped fix their tank issues
Because of icp. This is a great tool that we can use and it helps a lot of reefers.

Salt water parameters don’t change in shipping.
Once you takes your sample and put it in a bottle.
And seal it that sample will remain the same.
The same way if you mix a salt water the alk/cal/mag
And trace elements will stay the same in that container for a long time.
BRS did a test and that said the mixed salt water
Tested the same 30 days later.

Icp is not effected by shipping.

More people are getting bad reading from
Their apex triton than icp. But since apex is a sponsor
They get a pass. You spend $600 and when your reagents get low your readings are off. But no one says don’t trust trident.

I find it funny how we question companies that do icp test.
But don’t question BRS test that are conducted by two guys with a camera. But BRS are also sponsors so their
Word is bible.


I am getting ready to send out my icp test.
Good luck with your tanks

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley Verified Community Expert]

More people are getting bad reading from
Their apex triton than icp. But since apex is a sponsor
They get a pass. You spend $600 and when your reagents get low your readings are off. But no one says don’t trust trident.

I find it funny how we question companies that do icp test.
But don’t question BRS test that are conducted by two guys with a camera. But BRS are also sponsors so their
Word is bible.


I am getting ready to send out my icp test.
Good luck with your tanks

TOTAL CRAP STATEMENT WITH NO JUSTIFICATION!!!!!!!

I find that really insulting and suggest you are highly misinformed.

One thing I can say with utter assurance is that sponsors are not treated any differently than nonsponsors as their science is discussed in this chemistry forum, and to suggest otherwise is really ridiculous.

Did you not know that Triton (ICP company) actually is the sole sponsor of the chemistry forum itself, but you are claiming we give Apex a pass compared to Triton because they are also a sponsor? Come on, even someone who is not familiar with this forum, apparently like yourself, can see that is ridiculous.

 

[Amado]

The apex trident is a known problem.
That’s effecting a lot of tanks.
Numbers are off when your reagent get low.
But no one is saying don’t trust trident.

I know triton is a sponsor
I SEE the ads all the time. Lol
It’s not triton test that people are having a problem with
It’s the other companies.
So I am talking about those other companies.
Randy homes Farley I am sure you have been wrong in the past. I am sure you have made mistakes.
But I would never allow someone to say not to
Trust your opinion because you had a bad day
Two years ago. You are right most of the time.
Just like icp test they are right most of the time.

I am old enough to remember seeing doctors
Say cigarets don’t cause cancer and we all know
That was wrong. $$$
I am done with this thread.
It’s not helping the original post

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley Verified Community Expert]

The apex trident is a known problem.
That’s effecting a lot of tanks.
Numbers are off when your reagent get low.
But no one is saying don’t trust trident.

I know triton is a sponsor
I SEE the ads all the time. Lol
It’s not triton test that people are having a problem with
It’s the other companies.
So I am talking about those other companies.
Randy homes Farley I am sure you have been wrong in the past. I am sure you have made mistakes.
But I would never allow someone to say not to
Trust your opinion because you had a bad day
Two years ago. You are right most of the time.
Just like icp test they are right most of the time.

I am old enough to remember seeing doctors
Say cigarets don’t cause cancer and we all know
That was wrong. $$$
I am done with this thread.
It’s not helping the original post

I certainly have made plenty of mistakes, and I never said not to use ICP testing. I think it can be very useful.

But there is no preference shown to sponsors vs nonsponsors.

 

[4sylvester]

Not all ICP is accurate. Not all hobby kits are accurate. Combine the two and they will often disagree. lol

This is spot on! I manage 3 water testing laboratories in 2 states. We run multiple ICP, ICPMS, and IC instruments. My labs test my tank water weekly and i do home test kits about once a month. Those advanced pieces of equipment are very reliable but that assumes everything such as calibration and sample prep was done perfectly and that is not always the case. Are those big vendors doing maintenance on their equipment when their Boron calibration starts to drift? I am sure they do but exactly when do they scrap a sample run because the instrument is off spec? Your definition of acceptable may not be the same as theirs. This is why in my business "blind samples" are a common thing. We get water that looks like any other client sample but its a disguised check standard with known concentrations. If we report results for that sample that is not within specs we risk losing our certification. There is no certification for reef water so your results are not being judged by any certified authority.. .just something to keep in mind.

If you really want confidence in your home test kits make a known "standard" or buy one. Some test kits come with a standard which is great. If you make one yourself make it with a concentration close to that of your reef water. Assuming you prepare your standard correctly it should give you confidence in your results. Titrations for example can be very reliable if you can consistently identify the endpoint and a standard can help refine your technique

 

[Thaxxx]

Or when you tank looks great and everything is at, or near its best, test it.
Use those numbers as your baseline. Using your home test kits.

 

[Lousybreed]

This is why we can’t have nice things.
Icp test fails are probably less than 10%
But here we are here saying it’s bad.

Somebody reads this thread and decides not to do an icp
Test. A lot of people have been helped fix their tank issues
Because of icp. This is a great tool that we can use and it helps a lot of reefers.

Salt water parameters don’t change in shipping.
Once you takes your sample and put it in a bottle.
And seal it that sample will remain the same.
The same way if you mix a salt water the alk/cal/mag
And trace elements will stay the same in that container for a long time.
BRS did a test and that said the mixed salt water
Tested the same 30 days later.

Icp is not effected by shipping.

More people are getting bad reading from
Their apex triton than icp. But since apex is a sponsor
They get a pass. You spend $600 and when your reagents get low your readings are off. But no one says don’t trust trident.

I find it funny how we question companies that do icp test.
But don’t question BRS test that are conducted by two guys with a camera. But BRS are also sponsors so their
Word is bible.


I am getting ready to send out my icp test.
Good luck with your tanks

Please stop making up things. You have no clue about water testing. Your statements are false. People do not listen to this person. Water chemistry doesn’t change. Really? Do you even understand the basics? Actually water chemistry changing during flight is my biggest concern. You can have precipitation at low and high temps and we just don’t know what actually happens to our tank water in flight. Another person put it best, when you send out water samples for professional reasons (such as COD, BOD, and NO3, etc) there is a whole protocol that is involved to PRESERVE the water sample to ensure accuracy.

 

[Amado]

Please stop making up things. You have no clue about water testing. Your statements are false. People do not listen to this person. Water chemistry doesn’t change. Really? Do you even understand the basics? Actually water chemistry changing during flight is my biggest concern. You can have precipitation at low and high temps and we just don’t know what actually happens to our tank water in flight. Another person put it best, when you send out water samples for professional reasons (such as COD, BOD, and NO3, etc) there is a whole protocol that is involved to PRESERVE the water sample to ensure accuracy.

You are correct I have NO IDEA of water chemistry.
That’s why I pay $ for a ICP test.
Because I am not a chemist but the people at ICP are.
I am sure they have the needed protocols to make sure
My water sample is good for testing.
I let the professionals do their work.
I have never said I know anything about water testing.
I am not asking people to trust me
I am asking people to TRust the professionals

 

[User1]

The apex trident is a known problem.
That’s effecting a lot of tanks.
Numbers are off when your reagent get low.
But no one is saying don’t trust trident.

Do you have a source to back this up?

Please use your favorite search engine and look for the Feb 20th Live Stream Neptune did. It actually talks about a reported problem, confirmed, with 1% of their "Trident" user base. They are working with those customers to narrow down the problem to see if it is environmental (Trident placement) vs. something else. But blanket statements such as this are misleading.

Here are my readings from this morning with low reagents.

 

[ReefHomieJon]

Or when you tank looks great and everything is at, or near its best, test it.
Use those numbers as your baseline. Using your home test kits.

I think this is actually what may be most important. We’re getting TOO scientific people! Lol a little chemistry is all we need. The eye is probably the best measuring tool. If it looks great at certain parameters then use those as a baseline right??? I may never send an icp again....

 

[ReefHomieJon]

UPDATE:
So I did what I said I was going to do. Slowly raise my calcium and alk. added trace elements, and dosed Red Sea Reef energy AB+, followed by rods food.
The day before my short tent pinwheel looked like this(here he’s eating a shrimp)

After doing all my dosing, I went to sleep, woke up, went to work, and came home to THIS:

i have never seen it look like this, not even in the LFS when I bought it. It’s like on steroids lol. So, I’m happy

 

[Amado]

Do you have a source to back this up?

Please use your favorite search engine and look for the Feb 20th Live Stream Neptune did. It actually talks about a reported problem, confirmed, with 1% of their "Trident" user base. They are working with those customers to narrow down the problem to see if it is environmental (Trident placement) vs. something else. But blanket statements such as this are misleading.

Here are my readings from this morning with low reagents.

Yeah your trident is working so there no way anyone else
Can possibly have a problem lol

 

[User1]

Yeah your trident is working so there no way anyone else
Can possibly have a problem lol

Did you watch the live stream I noted? I am saying you made a blanket statement without a reference. I provided you one in which they discussed the topic. I just wanted to show you a low reagent B and C with accurate numbers. You nor I know how many Tridents are in hobbyists hands but if it was a bigger issue then there would be more data to back it up.

If you have a Trident what are your values? I'd be interested to know.

 

[Rick Mathew]

Icp test are very accurate.
The problem with “hobby grade tests kit”
Is the user. A lot of people do the test wrong. Getting a reefbot or auto tester takes the human out of the equation.

Amado....I most certainly agree that user error and less than stellar laboratory practices account for many of the frustrations of Hobby Grade Test Kit results...I cover a lot of these in my 4 Articles on Testing...You can find them here https://www.reef2reef.com/ams/categories/reef-chemistry.5/

However your statement with regard to "ICP test being very accurate" is not supported by any evidence I have seen. I know of lots of declarations of accuracy but I myself have not seen data to support the declaration...Accuracy requires a comparison of test results vs known standards. From the results of these comparisons one can make a statement about the accuracy of the measurement. I know very little about reefbot but I would make the same statement with regard to it..."How do the test results of each of the tests compare to known standards

By the way this principle not only applies to ICP Testing but to Hobby Grade Kits

Respectfully

rick

 

[Amado]

Did you watch the live stream I noted? I am saying you made a blanket statement without a reference. I provided you one in which they discussed the topic. I just wanted to show you a low reagent B and C with accurate numbers. You nor I know how many Tridents are in hobbyists hands but if it was a bigger issue then there would be more data to back it up.

If you have a Trident what are your values? I'd be interested to know.

I don’t have a trident I don’t trust neptune as a company.
I am patiently waiting for a competitor.
I have my $50 Hanna checker that always works.
I have a lot of apex products but I am slowly moving
Away from their products. This is a hobby for me.
I like to keep things simple. I think people complicate this hobby with no need.
My LFS has a show tank in the store. He never test anything
He doesn’t dose any elements or any thing to feed the corals.
The tank is on a calcium reactor / skimmer and that’s it no UV .that tank has some of the best corals I have ever seen and corals eat fish poop and that’s it. Reefers 10yr ago had great tanks you asked them what their alk was they would say I have no idea lol

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley Verified Community Expert]

You are correct I have NO IDEA of water chemistry.
That’s why I pay $ for a ICP test.
Because I am not a chemist but the people at ICP are.
I am sure they have the needed protocols to make sure
My water sample is good for testing.
I let the professionals do their work.
I have never said I know anything about water testing.
I am not asking people to trust me
I am asking people to TRust the professionals

OK, here's what the owner of one of those ICP companies you think I shouldn't criticize said here. You can decide for yourself if he is a qualified chemical professional:

ICP testing

https://www.icp-analysis.com/ Is this a good thing? Based in Colorado. I've never been into much testing but I would do this. $100 for five tests. Comments please.

www.reef2reef.com

" I know, I did not mention alkalinity. Alkalinity is not an element. It is a term used when we calculate how stable our pH is, i.e. the buffer. The buffer is calculated from compounds containing Ca and a hydroxide compound (OH). Since OH is a compound, ICP-OES will not perform the calculation of alkalinity."
In addition, they reports many crazy values to reefers that are almost certainly untrue. like this one with 34 ppm gallium:

ICP Test

After reading some of the threads Im not sure how much to trust these results but I thought I would ask anyways. My tank has mostly thrived except when it comes to Clams. Ive tried over 8 of them and they last months and then finally die. I was hoping an ICP test might shed some light. SPS, LPS...

www.reef2reef.com

 

[Halal Hotdog]

@Randy Holmes-Farley what do you think of Fauna Marin's ICP test? I just ordered two and am curious if you had an opinion on it.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley Verified Community Expert]

@Randy Holmes-Farley what do you think of Fauna Marin's ICP test? I just ordered two and am curious if you had an opinion on it.

No particular opinion on them. I do not have a reason to not trust it.