HolisticBear
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A major advantage of ICP-analysis over Triton is cost, but with BRS's Black Friday 30% sale on Triton kits, it's basically a wash. BRS is currently sold out, but just FYI in-case they restock.
ICP testing
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A major advantage of ICP-analysis over Triton is cost, but with BRS's Black Friday 30% sale on Triton kits, it's basically a wash. BRS is currently sold out, but just FYI in-case they restock.
ATI North America
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The BRS Sale puts the Triton test the same price as our test without a sale, however you still have to pay postage you don't get alk, nitrate and 6 other items nor is your RODI water tested.
cperry7467
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I picked up a couple of ATI tests. Last week I setup the ATI DP-6 and ATI Essentials, might as well try out the ATI testing. I've used Triton before and my only complaints are the cost and turnaround time. It will probably be a month before I submit my ATI test but I'll gladly share my experience if anyone is interested.
ATI North America
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We ship tests every Tuesday and Friday (except this one due to the holiday) so if you plan your tests accordingly it will improve your turn around time.
Cheers
Last edited:
That's disheartening. I sent my test in last week . I don't know if it ever reached ATI since USPS said out for delivery but then never updated the progress. If it got there it was last Saturday. That means my sample won't be sent for another week?
cigarshark
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Alkalinity is constantly changing throughout the day in any demanding reef tank and getting results,that are 7-14 days old by shipping to Europe does not provide good information on where a tank is.
cigarshark
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That is because all my comments got deleted and I am not one to hang around forums much.
Randy Holmes-Farley
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I do not see anything of your's deleted from this thread. Maybe you got deleted elsewhere.
ATI North America
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One can still test their alkalinity with a hobby test kit at the time the water sample is taken and compare it to the ATI Labs results, which will prove very helpful if the match or if they don't.
Strange discussion.
Are there any other reasons to claim that alkalinity is not stable and therefore does not need to be measured?
or are certain statements more like excuses regarding alkalinity testing: We have done extensive testing, and the alkalinity remains very stable in a closed container. Even after several weeks. I think it's actually about something completely different. Let's face it, if you want to send water to a laboratory, don't you want to have as much information as possible? I think the more information you can gain, the more valuable the analyses are for the end user.
We would not offer the measurement if we did not think through our extensive testing that it was not useful to the customer.
However, it also much more work for a laboratory to precisely determine all other important parameters.
Therefore, I would like to give you a rough idea of how much effort we put in for you.
1. ICP-OES
For an ICP measurement we need about 5 minutes. Each sample is measured 5 times. That's what other ICP laboratories do, too. I don't take into account the additional effort we have to make for control samples and calibration etc. here. Let's take a time of 5 minutes for an ICP measurement.
2. IC (Ion chromatography)
In order to obtain other relevant values such as nitrate or fluoride, we need a second machine called IC (ion chromatography). However, as nitrate is quite important in our hobby, we also measure this value. Since we also measure fluoride here, all the Major elements are now complete.
For an IC measurement we need an additional 38 minutes.
3. Titrator
In order to determine Alkalinity of your samples, samples will be titrated with hydrochloric acid to a certain pH end point (pH 4.5 for Total Alkalinity), and the volume of the acid used for the titration will be recorded. This method is very precise to determine the alkalinity. For this we need another 5 minutes.
4. Conductivity Meter
To check your exact salinity we test your water in two ways. First we measure your salinity with a high precision Conductivity Meter. Then we compare this value with the calculated salinity of the ICP-OES. Since we only work with the top model of ICP machines, we can measure all major elements including chloride. This is very important when it comes to correctly evaluating your major element concentrations, as the concentration of natural major elements always correlates with salinity. In other Words: We first measure and calculate your salinity. We then calculate what the correct concentrations for all Major elements would be that correspond to the natural level with this salinity. Giving the end user salinity balanced set points to aim for for all elements.
It takes another 5 minutes to measure the salinity.
5. ICP-OES
Last but not least, we measure your RO-Water. We believe this is very important when it comes to finding sources of contamination. Our practical experience has shown that this can be a quite common form of aquarium contamination. We have helped many customers with this problem . To check the RO-Water we need another 5 minutes.
I feel it was important for me to tell you that we do not only do ICP-OES. We do our best to give you as much useful information as possible to run a successful aquarium.
So your sample is not only measured with the ICP, which takes only 5 minutes. We measure your water 5 times. And this on different machines and devices. One ICP-OES for salt water, another ICP-OES for RO-Water, two IC´s for nitrate and fluorine, a titrator for alkalinity and a conductivity meter for salinity. In total,it takes at least 58 minutes to perform your complete analysis.
We would not be happy to just give you an ICP analysis without referring to other relevant parameters such as salinity, alkalinite, nitrate, etc etc. We would like to give you as accurate picture of your water as possible. That is our ultimate goal.
Are there any other reasons to claim that alkalinity is not stable and therefore does not need to be measured?
or are certain statements more like excuses regarding alkalinity testing: We have done extensive testing, and the alkalinity remains very stable in a closed container. Even after several weeks. I think it's actually about something completely different. Let's face it, if you want to send water to a laboratory, don't you want to have as much information as possible? I think the more information you can gain, the more valuable the analyses are for the end user.
We would not offer the measurement if we did not think through our extensive testing that it was not useful to the customer.
However, it also much more work for a laboratory to precisely determine all other important parameters.
Therefore, I would like to give you a rough idea of how much effort we put in for you.
1. ICP-OES
For an ICP measurement we need about 5 minutes. Each sample is measured 5 times. That's what other ICP laboratories do, too. I don't take into account the additional effort we have to make for control samples and calibration etc. here. Let's take a time of 5 minutes for an ICP measurement.
2. IC (Ion chromatography)
In order to obtain other relevant values such as nitrate or fluoride, we need a second machine called IC (ion chromatography). However, as nitrate is quite important in our hobby, we also measure this value. Since we also measure fluoride here, all the Major elements are now complete.
For an IC measurement we need an additional 38 minutes.
3. Titrator
In order to determine Alkalinity of your samples, samples will be titrated with hydrochloric acid to a certain pH end point (pH 4.5 for Total Alkalinity), and the volume of the acid used for the titration will be recorded. This method is very precise to determine the alkalinity. For this we need another 5 minutes.
4. Conductivity Meter
To check your exact salinity we test your water in two ways. First we measure your salinity with a high precision Conductivity Meter. Then we compare this value with the calculated salinity of the ICP-OES. Since we only work with the top model of ICP machines, we can measure all major elements including chloride. This is very important when it comes to correctly evaluating your major element concentrations, as the concentration of natural major elements always correlates with salinity. In other Words: We first measure and calculate your salinity. We then calculate what the correct concentrations for all Major elements would be that correspond to the natural level with this salinity. Giving the end user salinity balanced set points to aim for for all elements.
It takes another 5 minutes to measure the salinity.
5. ICP-OES
Last but not least, we measure your RO-Water. We believe this is very important when it comes to finding sources of contamination. Our practical experience has shown that this can be a quite common form of aquarium contamination. We have helped many customers with this problem . To check the RO-Water we need another 5 minutes.
I feel it was important for me to tell you that we do not only do ICP-OES. We do our best to give you as much useful information as possible to run a successful aquarium.
So your sample is not only measured with the ICP, which takes only 5 minutes. We measure your water 5 times. And this on different machines and devices. One ICP-OES for salt water, another ICP-OES for RO-Water, two IC´s for nitrate and fluorine, a titrator for alkalinity and a conductivity meter for salinity. In total,it takes at least 58 minutes to perform your complete analysis.
We would not be happy to just give you an ICP analysis without referring to other relevant parameters such as salinity, alkalinite, nitrate, etc etc. We would like to give you as accurate picture of your water as possible. That is our ultimate goal.
cigarshark
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Knowing alkalinity at 0800 is not the same as knowing the alkalinity at 1625 hours in a LPS or SPS dominant tank. My comment has nothing to do with the importance of alkalinity. I believe a stable alkalinity is the most important aspect in keeping a reef tank happy. We do have a Hach auto titrator for testing alkalinity and will be adding alkalinity because it has been asked for. I just point out the fact that knowing what your alkalinity was when you shipped your sample is not as useful as one might think. The human error involved in using hobby level test kits and quality and age of the reagents that the user has can provide confusing information. Most people think that their Hanna checkers and their Titratration test kits are accurate and the truth is they are not even close. I have seen titration kits be off as much as 30% and I have watched individuals use the same test kit and get completely different results for alkalinity, and I see Hanna checkers off more than the 5% margin of error they report.
cigarshark
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Are there any other reasons to claim that alkalinity is not stable and therefore does not need to be measured?
or are certain statements more like excuses regarding alkalinity testing: We have done extensive testing, and the alkalinity remains very stable in a closed container. Even after several weeks. I think it's actually about something completely different. Let's face it, if you want to send water to a laboratory, don't you want to have as much information as possible? I think the more information you can gain, the more valuable the analyses are for the end user.
We would not offer the measurement if we did not think through our extensive testing that it was not useful to the customer.
I love your comments here and also the assumption that I do not know what IC is and what an IC is useful for. I am going to assume that english not being your first language is the reasoning for these comments, I would also like to give you 2 thumbs up for having a Phd doing your testing. Over here in America we could not find a Phd that wants to sit in front of instruments and run samples for a living, I suppose that is a difference between Europe and America.
or are certain statements more like excuses regarding alkalinity testing: We have done extensive testing, and the alkalinity remains very stable in a closed container. Even after several weeks. I think it's actually about something completely different. Let's face it, if you want to send water to a laboratory, don't you want to have as much information as possible? I think the more information you can gain, the more valuable the analyses are for the end user.
We would not offer the measurement if we did not think through our extensive testing that it was not useful to the customer.
I love your comments here and also the assumption that I do not know what IC is and what an IC is useful for. I am going to assume that english not being your first language is the reasoning for these comments, I would also like to give you 2 thumbs up for having a Phd doing your testing. Over here in America we could not find a Phd that wants to sit in front of instruments and run samples for a living, I suppose that is a difference between Europe and America.
Exactly. But knowing your alkalinity when you ship your samples is useful. For example you can find a correction factor for your "hobby level" test kit. This is something many of our customers do. With Salinity it is very similar. Most people think that their Refractometer is 100% correct. Unfortunately, that is not always the case. Overall, it's more about giving people an idea of the real values and comparing this with their own measurements. And of course stability is king. This is especially important for alkalinity, but for many other parameters (abiotic and biotic factors) as well.
Greetings from Germany
I think the fact that you have to resort to calling someone out about the native language shows your level of professionalism and why I would never use your buisness to test anything. ATI is well trusted and there response to your unnecessary rudeness shows how above you they truly are. @cigarshark you still never responded to furam28 about asking what degrees you hold? Maybe that was your post that got deleted right
cigarshark
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I think the fact that you have to resort to calling someone out about the native language shows your level of professionalism and why I would never use your buisness to test anything. ATI is well trusted and there response to your unnecessary rudeness shows how above you they truly are. @cigarshark you still never responded to furam28 about asking what degrees you hold? Maybe that was your post that got deleted right
I don’t live on the forums as I run 3 different businesses, and I hold degrees in applied mathematics and chemistry and I have been a formulating chemist for 24 years and have successful businesses. Since ATI thought they could start throwing rude comments towards me I thought I would return the favor. If you wish to call someone out @DSC reef learn the correct forms of there, their, they’re.
Since it was about 7 months ago that posts got deleted I could not say as to what was on them, I was informed that they were deleted because I was not a paying sponsor and I was speaking for a business. I feel that if someone wants to say derogatory comments about my business then I have the right to reply, and to speak of ATI being a trusted company, well I suppose contracting a company like Sylvannia to make their lightbulbs for them makes them completely qualified and trustworthy to analyze water because lightbulbs and elemental chromatography have so much in common. Plus it is true that you will not find a PhD in chemistry or related area to be running samples for an ICP-OES and an IC in America, that is left for lab technicians to do.
Ben@ATI Labs
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I would like to introduce myself. My name is Dr. Ben Funk, I have my Ph.D. in biology and I am the leader of the lab and the R&D department of ATI.
I have many challenging tasks at ATI. Beside R and D I also ensure, with the help of my team, that our machines do a proper job.
You can not only put somebody in front of such a machine who is able to push the buttons. You need passion, knowledge and technical understanding to reach and keep 98-99% accuracy with an ICP-OES machine.
If you have a team like mine, it is no problem to get ICP results of natural seawater that fit to the principle of constant proportions (Check).
I have many challenging tasks at ATI. Beside R and D I also ensure, with the help of my team, that our machines do a proper job.
You can not only put somebody in front of such a machine who is able to push the buttons. You need passion, knowledge and technical understanding to reach and keep 98-99% accuracy with an ICP-OES machine.
If you have a team like mine, it is no problem to get ICP results of natural seawater that fit to the principle of constant proportions (Check).
Randy Holmes-Farley
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Nice calculator you linked to!
