ICP testing

[Randy Holmes-Farley Verified Community Expert]

That is not true. One can lay some confidence on his effort/shop, because the test and equipment are from agilent, its not that he is running a snake oil titration method. Albeit, the wording on website may not be the best. But hey, communication has always been a hard problem., and you as an expert looking at it with a very high/accurate expectation. The fact that he is trying to explain his stance shows some level of integrity. We are human first, having some empathy will go a long way. If his stuff does not give confidence to you, say so, but calling crap and other derogatory word are not useful, it has never been useful... it just reflects our inner frustration..

What, exactly, did I say that isn't true? Please quote the exact sentence.

The post of mine you quoted is a statement of mine where I say his ludicrous description of alkalinity did not give me confidence in him and his testing. That is an absolute fact. It doesn't give me confidence. Quite the opposite.

It might give you confidence (does it really?) but that does not make my statement untrue in any way.

 

[Stlouphil]

BUT, I am an expert chemist with a PhD from Harvard

#Randy Holmes-Farley

Laying here reading all the “ICP” threads recovering from hip surgery. Read this and laughed out loud! Not at you, but that one statement pretty much summed up and locked in stone your credentials.

 

[cigarshark]

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I am not a PhD and I have not studied everything in the ocean and I do not have some of the answers you are asking about Randy I am just reporting what the testing is finding. I can tell you that ICP-OES has problems with Bromine and I stated earlier that Sulphur was a operator error of not forcing enough argon gas through for a wavelengths in the 200 nm range, and those are the only 2 elements I know I had issues with. Calcium, magnesium, potassium, sodium, chlorine, strontium are all accurate. I also read the what NOAA had to say about proportions and they even say it is an estimation tool.


People yesterday wanted to keep quoting books by people that did some test and it must be the law. If that is the case then PV=nRT would be the standard, we would still believe in electrons staying in their proper orbit and the Heisenberg uncertainty principle would never have been accepted.

I was taught to question and validate where the testing takes you. If people want to invalidate the water collected and our testing procedure then I do call them out to come here to Denver and invalidate the process, otherwise they should keep their mouths shut.

I was very frustrated yesterday, My integrity was called out for publishing ocean water data I tested and I was called shady person and I will not tolerate anyone insulting myself or my business and for a forum to tolerate that type of abuse to it's sponsors says a lot about what this forum is made of and the integrity of the people that oversee it. So far my opinion of this forum is extremely low and the owners should be ashamed that they allow their paid sponsors to be attacked by the members. To me the answer is simple and I will no longer support this forum and I will not have anything positive to say about it.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley Verified Community Expert]

I was very frustrated yesterday, My integrity was called out for publishing ocean water data I tested and I was called shady person and I will not tolerate anyone insulting myself or my business and for a forum to tolerate that type of abuse to it's sponsors says a lot about what this forum is made of and the integrity of the people that oversee it. So far my opinion of this forum is extremely low and the owners should be ashamed that they allow their paid sponsors to be attacked by the members. To me the answer is simple and I will no longer support this forum and I will not have anything positive to say about it.

To be clear, the forum staff does not control or censor members opinions, as long as they comply with forum rules.

As to staff itself (I think I'm the only one in this thread), I did not say anything about being shady. I'm just trying to help myself and others understand what the values reported mean, and I called out a few things which were incorrect (something that I always do when I come across it, sponsor or not; it happens fairly often, actually, and some folks do not care to hear it).

IMO, the NSW values are VERY useful, in part to see the natural values, and in part to see inherent variations due to testing error and/or natural variations. We were just pointing out that the variations seem beyond purely natural variations unless the water samples reflect highly localized issues.

I would not prefer to see you leave as a sponsor, obviously, but I also do not want anyone to think that sponsorship results in people being asked to "go easy" on a company or member that they disagree with.

 

[Ranjib]

What, exactly, did I say that isn't true? Please quote the exact sentence.

The post of mine you quoted is a statement of mine where I say his ludicrous description of alkalinity did not give me confidence in him and his testing. That is an absolute fact. It doesn't give me confidence. Quite the opposite.

It might give you confidence (does it really?) but that does not make my statement untrue in any way.

You did not said anything that is false. And I sincerely grateful for you sharing your insights, we as a community, are wiser with you among us. I just noted that you are unncessarily rude with repeated statements like "Your sentence about alkalinity is total nonsensical crap" . There is a human being on the otherside, and he/she might be find it hurtful, which is not required to make your point.

 

[Stlouphil]

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I am not a PhD and I have not studied everything in the ocean and I do not have some of the answers you are asking about Randy I am just reporting what the testing is finding.

So far my opinion of this forum is extremely low and the owners should be ashamed that they allow their paid sponsors to be attacked by the members. To me the answer is simple and I will no longer support this forum and I will not have anything positive to say about it.

Hopefully not because of me. I don’t have a dog in the fight. I commented on a statement. I did not comment on the material in the thread. I probably ought to avoid posting comments while I’m under the influence of heavy narcotics ( OxyContin ). I was told not to make “business decisions” while on this med.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley Verified Community Expert]

You did not said anything that is false. And I sincerely grateful for you sharing your insights, we as a community, are wiser with you among us. I just noted that you are unncessarily rude with repeated statements like "Your sentence about alkalinity is total nonsensical crap" . There is a human being on the otherside, and he/she might be find it hurtful, which is not required to make your point.

Fair enough. I was wrong to be so rude, and for that I apologize.

I wouldn't have done it if my first comment was not wrongly characterized as petty gossip like the National Enquirer, but still could have been nicer a second time.

"While forums can be useful, when people who are known in this hobby say poor things about companies they do not know anything about it turns the forums into just petty gossip, which is no better than the National Enquirer."

 

[JimWelsh]

those are the only 2 elements I know I had issues with

And yet, you continue to cite these values that you know are erroneous? Hmmm. I see.

Calcium, magnesium, potassium, sodium, chlorine, strontium are all accurate.

Your "Florida water" K/Cl ratio is 19% higher than the well-known NSW ratio. Your "Hawaii water" Ca/Cl ratio is 10% higher than the well-known NSW ratio.

I also read the what NOAA had to say about proportions and they even say it is an estimation tool.

Yes, an estimation tool that allows one to confidently infer the concentrations of the other major constituents in natural ocean waters by measuring, for example, chloride alone, to within better than 0.11% (Carritt and Carpenter (1959)). Not too shabby for a mere "estimation tool". This principle is why for decades, salinity was *defined* by measuring only chlorinity, because the proportions of the major constituents are so constant, that if you know the concentration of just one of them, you can infer the concentrations of all the others.

People yesterday wanted to keep quoting books by people that did some test and it must be the law.

I have previously explained to you that this has been determined over and over again by numerous teams of oceanographers over a period spanning two centuries involving thousands of samples all over the world. It's not just some guy who did some test. You might as well be disputing the law of gravity. If you wish to have any credibility at all regarding testing seawater, it might behoove you to understand this basic oceanographic principle, rather than ridicule or contest it.

http://www.google.com/search?q=law+of+constant+proportions+in+seawater

 

[rcpalmer1]

Where to start? I am the one who started the tread Did I pick the wrong ICP company. I am just a consumer. I do not have a PhD and have no clue how to run an ICP machine. I seen a link to this tread posted in my tread and decided to check it out. I have just read every comment. These go back months but I found myself wanting to comment several times but also wanting to finish reading the whole tread to insure I was not saying something that had already been addressed. I seen the Triton method but I have thought the test were over priced. For me $30 is about the most I am willing to pay for a water test. When I seen an ICP test at that price I decided to give it a try.

First this was my experience. I paid for 4 ICP-Analysis test kits from saltwateraquarium.com that were on sale a few weeks back. They sent me 1. When I asked what happened they said they didn't mean to mark them down that low so even though I paid for 4 and the packing slip said 4 they decided to only include 1 and not say anything to me. This had really nothing to do with the product but the distributor. However as a consumer this started me out feeling like I got a bait and switch with this product. I collected the test. The collection container seamed high quality. I felt the sample could be ran over by a truck and still make it to the test site intact. I got my results back quickly. 4 of my results showed negative values. There were nothing explaining any of the results. There was some comparisons but not ranges as to if my water was good or bad. So for me as a dumb consumer I don't know if I got any value out of the test.

Now to try and remember the comments about this tread I wanted to make. I am not going back to try to quote each post I am referring to. Post 69 had my thread quoted but no comment. Was the comment deleted?

I had started and ran a business for 13 years. I can admire and respect someone who sees a need, is willing to risk a lot of money, and take the time to try and bring a product to the US at a better price. I can can understand that person being sensitive to anyone questioning their product. I have personally found Reef2Reef to be the friendliest and most helpful forum I have ever been on ever. As I was reading the post from the beginning there were knowledgeable people asking about this new test/company they did not know about. That is what this forum is about. I did not feel this tread turn negative until some of the comments made by Cigarshark. People were just asking questions and instead of answering the questions it seamed to me it was mostly personal attacks and excuses back. I have seen people ask the same questions over and over on this forum and about Triton and Triton answer them again and again without even commenting they had just answered the same question the day before in the same tread. I have seen this some but not as much with ATI but I have never seen either post something negative or make a personal attack. And @Randy Holmes-Farley I don't understand why he/she is here other than because of a passion for the hobby. It is ridiculous that I can ask what has to be the most basic of question for him and I get an answer from a Harvard PhD. Then I still not get it and he take the time to reexplain it to me in a way that I can understand. He is not selling anything. The only motive I can think he has is trying to help others.

These are my final words, this is America and the Land of the Free and the land where people can choose where the do their business,

I will quote this post and say. My Grand Father fought the Germans in WWII, My Grand Father on the other side of my family served in the Navy during WWII and he didn't make it home, My uncle fought in Vietnam War, I was in Dessert Storm, and my Daughter in currently Active Duty Marine. I am very Passionate about America. I have a flag flying high in my front yard. I believe in buying American when possible. Every car I have ever owned was made in America from one of the Big 3. Calling someone out for using the wrong usage of their, there, or they're when half of Americans use the wrong one is petty and arrogant. Things like that is why many other cultures stereotype of Americans are not the best. I own several German made tool because there was not an American one that was of the same quality and precision. As you stated I am free to choose to do business with a German company that will answer my questions and treat people with respect rather than with an American company that doesn't. Also for me when a person uses a definitive like "These are my last words" then makes several more most in the same tread that doesn't fill me with confidence in what they say.

Boy this came a long way from the original question, Is this a good thing?

Just my 2 cents

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley Verified Community Expert]

Now to try and remember the comments about this tread I wanted to make. I am not going back to try to quote each post I am referring to. Post 69 had my thread quoted but no comment. Was the comment deleted?

Post 69 seems to be quoting me, and his reply was accidentally put into the quote.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley Verified Community Expert]

I will quote this post and say. My Grand Father fought the Germans in WWII, My Grand Father on the other side of my family served in the Navy during WWII and he didn't make it home,

My grandfather was there too, in the D-day landing at Normandy. I just learned a funny story from my mother that I thought I'd pass along to lighten the mood.

Tony was in some sort of information/propaganda group so wasn't really much of a fighter. Apparently, like most others in the landing, he had some sort of massive backpack he had to wear. His landing craft was taking a lot of fire and guys were being killed and bailing out all around. He didn't think he could swim with that pack on, so he tossed it overboard when no one was looking.

Luckily, he made it ashore, or I wouldn't be here today.

 

[Cory]

Just a quick thought. Wouldnt a reef with much hydrothermal activity not produce higher amounts of sulphur, thus changing the chloride to sulphur ratio? Or volcanic rock?

 

[Gareth elliott]

Just a quick thought. Wouldnt a reef with much hydrothermal activity not produce higher amounts of sulphur, thus changing the chloride to sulphur ratio? Or volcanic rock?

I was reading this earlier today, study on such an ecosystem and extrapolating to future effects of climate change. Not actually a response to your comment, but an interesting read.
http://www.highco2-iv.org/1946

 

[Cory]

I was reading this earlier today, study on such an ecosystem and extrapolating to future effects of climate change. Not actually a response to your comment, but an interesting read.
http://www.highco2-iv.org/1946

Thats interesting how the further away from ph of 6.9 the more growth they observed (or corals).makes sense that corals wont thrive in a ph of 6.9 theu would dissolve.

 

[topjimmy]

I doubt that the entire ocean will ever reach 6.9 pH.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley Verified Community Expert]

Just a quick thought. Wouldnt a reef with much hydrothermal activity not produce higher amounts of sulphur, thus changing the chloride to sulphur ratio? Or volcanic rock?

Vent water varies, but is often depleted in sulfate (many have none) and are considered a net sink. That will only impact the very near area to a vent. River inputs are much bugger and often a net source (after evaporation)..

 

[Fritzhamer]

If you look up any aftermarket accidental damage company you find negative reviews being the majority of the posts. The reason for this is customers always think they are right. Our program we offer is sold by sales people that often oversell the program and the consumer chooses not to read the first page on the brochure that tells the consumer what we cover and do not cover, and when consumer files a claim on something we state in bold clear print that we do not cover they get ****** and rant on the web. When you sell thousands of warranty programs a year there are always going to be unhappy customers. Examples of things we denied on a regular basis are children taking knives and scissors stabbing their furniture, manufacturing defects, such as leather bursting because it is too thin and pulled so tight that it can not handle the pressure of someone sitting on it, stiching coming undone. These are all happening within the first 2 years of furniture being in use. These examples make up 99% of upset people and these items are beyond an accidental coverage program. When people are happy with a program like ours they rarely take the time to post a positive review. When they are not happy with a denial reply from us they feel cheated and have a lot of negative emotions and they post negative things. If you look at any service company on the net you will find a majority of reviews to be negative for these reasons. Look at the average person and ask yourself how often do they go on line to post a reply about a good job the plumber, electrician, cable tech did when they fixed a problem? When people are happy they continue on with their life because we expect a proper job to be done and no further action is required.
The small percentage of unhappy customers we have is a result of people believing that we should cover something we tell them up front we do not cover and that the customer is always right. News flash, the customer is not always right.

I’ve founded several successful service businesses. One of which we have Franchised. One of the things that I tell our new Franchisees is “clients that LOVE you will never refer business to you. Only clients that are fanatical about you will refer clients. That is your goal 100% of the time. Sometimes it isn’t possible but you still try. When something goes wrong is your true opportunity to turn an angry person into a fanatical free salesperson.”

Tunze comes to mind here. The very few times I’ve had an issue, Roger took ownership and sent me out a new part. He did this even when he didn’t think a new part was warranted, but just to be safe if his fix didn’t work the new part was already on its way. That’s how you handle a problem.

If your business model is that 99% percent of claims aren’t covered (I also used to own an insurance company), your real business is getting over on people. I personally wouldn’t be comfortable having a business like yours regardless of how profitable it is. Clearly steps need to be taken to better communicate what is and isn’t covered. If 99% of people misread what is covered, you aren’t explaining it well. That should be obvious to anyone with a degree in anything mathematical but you choose to blame 99% of people reading your literature instead. Your state clearly has a rather lax dept of insurance. Here in NY you’d need a really good defense atty to claim those stats aren’t criminal.

I only got to the above post in this thread but that’s enough for me. In my eyes you’re a criminal. Those are harsh words but again we’ve owned similar businesses and here in NY, that’s what it’s called. I believe that doing the right thing by people is the correct way to grow a business.

 

[RajV]

Following an abrupt end

 

[Genomecop]

Wow. What was all that?

 

[sp0di]

Man - I was just going to start a gofundme page to go and dive at the world renound reefs and provide water sample back to the various labs for testing, so we can all get an idea of exactly what waters are suppose to be based on these reefs. *Dream shattered*

oh well, back to day dreaming....