If You Had It to Do Again . . .

[Maritimer]

If you were setting up a new system, knowing what you've learned from your "now" system, what would you do differently?

What's absolutely indispensable - indeed, what would you have doubled up on?

What would you have left out entirely, or what's just not that important?

What would make your reefing life easier, if you could re-design it from scratch?

How would you sump it? Plumb it? Light it? Stock it? Feed it?

Do I have a reason for asking? An ulterior motive?

Yep. I'm assembling the ingredients to upgrade my 65 gallon high-nitrate reef into a 220 gallon reef-ready glass box. I'd just as soon get it as close to "right" as I can the first time - or at least the second time!

For instance, I'm only going to port over half of my "Fiji Mud", and likely won't purchase any new mud. (And if I did, I'd place it in containers I could lift out of my sump, instead of smearing the bottom of the sump with it!)

I'm going to be using a more powerful skimmer, and may eventually install some "reactors" for carbon, GFO and biopellets. (Currently, I've got carbon/GFO in a bag, which is OK, but . . . )

Having experienced the joy of high nitrates, (and with the self-generated "pressure" to stock the tank somewhat reduced) I think I'll be adding fish and other livestock more slowly in the future.

Having experienced the delight that is Cryptocaryon irritans, I'll continue to run a QT - but now I can have a skimmer on it if I want, 'cause I'm getting a new skimmer for the big box.

If you had it to do again, how would you do it?

~Bruce

 

[eatbreakfast]

If you have the chance, having the sump in the basement and having a pump directly plumbed to the waste line, so that large water changes can be done just by turning a ball valve.

 

[Pdandy]

I would make my stand about 6" taller. I don't have enough room to work down there. I can't even get my skimmer in/out without taking it apart and putting it back together in the sump.

 

[dochow]

Wow where do I start!

This is an essay and I'll comment on livestock rather than all the equipment side. Of which I would have splurged on the best lights possible first rather than spending money 3 times to get the ones I finally wanted. BTW I have a 15month old 75 gallon mixed reef with 30 gallon sump/refugium.

My first thing would be:

Quarantine everything, put nothing in the display tank without appropriate QT. All fish, all corals, all macroalgae, all invertebrates.

Do not risk contaminating your DT. It is very rewarding knowing you have a disease and parasite free tank. It trumps the early satisfaction of having all types of cool stuff in the DT.

I didn't QT everything and I ended up fighting off Ich from my DT by going fallow and then QT'ing all my fish in copper and then treating with paraguard for parasites. I have completely disease free fish to the best of my knowledge and I am scared to add new ones until I have time to do tank transfer followed by an observation period for incoming inhabitants.

On to inverts: QT all of them!! Corals come with all sorts of crap, even if you dip them. They can have the cystic form of Ich on them. They have bryposis algae and bubble algae which is a nightmare (I'm dealing with this now). And they have others coral diseases and coral predators. Observe them in invert only QT, treat and remove all pests/algae etc on them. Same goes for snails and crabs. Only need a nice AI prime light, a HOB filter and heater in bare bottom tank (20 gallon for me) and you are good to go.

If you do this already, you are a better reefer than me! Despite all my reading and protocols and previous reef keeping experience, I still had to learn the hard way which is probably how most people end up learning in this hobby because they are too excited to have such cool fish and inverts in their DT. Have restraint!!

As BRSTV recently showed, learn how to have "conscious competence." If you haven't watched the stages of reefing competence, definitely worth it to see where you fit on spectrum.

http://www.bulkreefsupply.com/video...ating-nudibranchs-52-weeks-of-reefing-brs160/

 

[Maritimer]

Great ideas, TJ & Pdandy!

Both would serve the same purpose - allowing the keeper to work easily on all the hardware the sump is home to . . . If it's easier to do, you're more likely to do it . . .

Dochow, that's a great philosophy! I've done battle with ich, and seem to be at a standoff with Bryopsis, so I feel that pain . . .

~Bruce

 

[ahiggins]

If you were setting up a new system, knowing what you've learned from your "now" system, what would you do differently?-- I would have went bigger instead of a 25 gallon cube and I would have put in more circulation. I would have also used dry rock and wait the extra time for it to cure. Im constantly finding new aiptasia I have to deal with. I first bought cheap LEDs for $200....I wish I told myself just to get the good ones. I ended up buying the AI prime after all.
OH and the biggie, pulling/treating ANY new frags for algae. I had a breakout of bryopsis. Before I got the cowrie snail, I was pulling out my hair daily.

What's absolutely indispensable - indeed, what would you have doubled up on?--It would have to be my nitrate reactor and skimmer combo lol I cant live without it because I stock on the heavy side a feed my corals a lot. Im not really that into fish/inverts but I adore all my coral so they get babied. One thing that makes my life easy is a circulation pump inside my mixing bucket. I add salt and walk away for a bit. When I come back its mixed Oh, and RODI is an absolute must. I made up the original 25 gallons with regular tap water plus the de chlorinator. I had algae blooms for dayssss before I figured out what it was.

What would you have left out entirely, or what's just not that important?--I feel like I would have either left out sand or put in more circulation. I also would have thought harder about what fish I wanted to put in there. I put in a pair of clowns before I knew about snowflake clowns so I tore down my scape to get them out.

What would make your reefing life easier, if you could re-design it from scratch?--having a sump instead of an AIO WITH a fuge. If Im dreaming...I would make a water station so that when I needed water changes, I could just bring over a hose to drain old water and then bring a hose with a pump to pump in fresh SW. My system is small but I still use 5 gallon buckets lol

How would you sump it? Plumb it? Light it? Stock it? Feed it?--I dont know much about plumbing but I would definitely add a refugion with DSB and filter socks

Good luck!

 

[cb684]

I would keep it simple.
DT:
The largest tank you can afford or you can fit you your house
Bare bottom tank
Pukani rock
T5 + LED lights
Wave makers

Sump:
Filter socks
Skimmer (a good one)
Return pumps (more than one)
Heaters (2 or 3 small ones)

Other:
Apex
DOS for dosing 2 part
DOS (or Stenner) for AWC
Holding tanks (for Saltwater mix and RODI)
Whole house standby generator / or batteries if you use ecotech or gyre
UPS for router and Apex (so you will always have internet and will always receive messages from apex)
I would make my own ATO with plenty redundancy and safeguards.

I believe in redundancy, stability, and monitoring.

 

[DeniseAndy]

I would not have tried a closed loop system. I would have put the sump in the basement first off instead of a couple years later. I would have created a vent to the outside in the basement cuz now I cannot close the fish room door due to heat. Most of the rest is fine. Sometimes I wish I had never introduced gorgs. Not because I do not love my system, but because I cannot add some of my favorite lps species. I have to keep separate tanks. Just bums me out sometimes.

 

[Ladysabertooth2]

Hmmmm ok I would go for a drilled tank with sump. Not a all in one. I would also invest in apex with leak detection......

 

[Brew12]

If I were to start over I would do it with a much smaller system. Something along the lines of a 30g all in one with a bare bottom. I would use this system to learn the basics and eventually become a frag/invert QT for a larger DT later.
Starting with a 6ft, 120g tank for a first aquarium has been overwhelming at times. I've been relatively successful so far but I acknowledge much of that has been luck.

 

[redfishbluefish]

What's absolutely indispensable - indeed, what would you have doubled up on?

Reef Controller - Whatever brand makes you happy. I have old-school ReefKeeper II's, and they meet my needs. Easy to program and have no interest in having it communicate with my phone.

As much automation as possible....such as dosing pumps; auto water changing; etc.


What would you have left out entirely, or what's just not that important?

No softies (maybe a couple zoas) but certainly no clove polyps, mushrooms, star polys and any monti cap....a weed I tell you!



What would make your reefing life easier, if you could re-design it from scratch?

Stated in first question above....the only thing I haven't automated (yet) is water changes.



How would you sump it? Plumb it? Light it? Stock it? Feed it?

Sump - took me three sumps to get it "right", but my sump has no bubble traps....didn't need them. This doesn't mean you could get away with it.....it's just that my skimmer (SWC160) doesn't put out any microbubbles. Oh, and it's a DIY sump, and a 40 Breeder is an excellent tank for a DIY sump....fixs all that needs to be there.

Plumb - Go with a DC pump ( I have a Waveline). Like the DC part....less heat than the MAG it replaced....and the slow start....and that it's adjustable.

Lights - Maybe I'm the oddball, but I like my LED's. Started with T5's and didn't like the heat and yearly bulb costs. And yes, I did notice that some of my corals morphed in color....but they still make me happy.

Stocking - That's personal preference (and dictated by tank size and who gets along together). So that's up to you. I personally don't like lionfish and foxfaces....but that's me.

Feed it - Variety. I alternate between flake, and multiple frozen foods (mysis, blackworm, homemade, table shrimp, lobster)

 

[kendavjac]

I would simplify. tank, sump, skimmer, ATO and lights. No socks. I would have made my sump larger if I could do it over again (more room to work in).

Definitively no mushrooms, cheap zoa's. and nuclear green palys. Can't give them away fast enough. Just donated 200-300 polyps to the LFS because it was that or throw them in the trash. I have to thin them down every 3-4 months and none of my friends want them anymore.

I would use cheap Chinese LED's from the start. Have used MH, t5's, and LED's. Like the Chinese LED's the best. Cheap to buy and cheaper to run. Have not noticed any change in growth since switching.

I liked my small tanks, but should have gone big from the beginning. Lots of $$$ wasted setting up a 40g, 29g 55g, 60g, 75g, and a 125g. Should have started with at least a 200g.

Jebao pumps. Love the power heads and the DC pumps. I have used these since they have come out and have not had a failure yet. If they all crap out tomorrow I'm still ahead by a at least $500.

If I win the Lotto I will add a controller. I have been keeping Saltwater since 1992 and have not felt the need for one yet. I understand the benefit, but with 3 kids about to go to college I can't justify the expense. Plus I enjoy playing with my tank.

I may add a Calcium reactor in the future once the Kalk in my top off water no longer keeps up.

No expensive fish. There is a proportional relationship between how expensive a fish is and how quickly it dies.

 

[Tom Blevins]

I would go with a 48x48x24 cube with T5/LED hybrid lighting, plumb more through
the bottom of the tank for flow so I can remove flow pumps with wires in the tank.

Try and learn how to program an APEX because I am computer stupid.. I currently
use the old faithful timers with the green on / red off tabs for everything.

 

[becks]

I would go with a 48x48x24 cube with T5/LED hybrid lighting, plumb more through
the bottom of the tank for flow so I can remove flow pumps with wires in the tank.

Try and learn how to program an APEX because I am computer stupid.. I currently
use the old faithful timers with the green on / red off tabs for everything.

Yeah I would love a 48 48 24 tank

 

[brandon429]

im already running my do over system for 1.5 yrs now and the changes to the prior system made all the difference. it was the simplest changeup ever...making a modular/removable scape.

that one factor alone...making rock stacks that are literally removable outside the tank, changed my reefing enjoyment 100%. it means you don't have to dose the water for all the common reef rock maladies. If the new additives on the market offering to cure any known invader (algae, inverts etc) works out then even modular scapes wont be needed. But its amazing being algae free and invader free forever using no retail items as well. when valonia came, I lifted out my rocks and hacked it off, then it didn't spread.

 

[Cleverbs]

I just did this. I have built 6 systems during my reef life and I walked away for a bit because thing just didnt go my way. I came back and decided I am going to take allll the things I have learned over the years and all the things I have regretted not doing while building my system and implementing them in this build.

 

[nickenayat]

Would've gone with a bigger tank and a sump setup rather than all in one. Granted those two aspects make the tank exponentially more expensive and that's why I didn't go with that setup. But if I had to do it again I would've found a way hahaha. Gonna end up upgrading everything probably in a year or two

 

[Maritimer]

If you were setting up a new system, knowing what you've learned from your "now" system, what would you do differently?-- I would have went bigger instead of a 25 gallon cube and I would have put in more circulation. I would have also used dry rock and wait the extra time for it to cure. Im constantly finding new aiptasia I have to deal with. I first bought cheap LEDs for $200....I wish I told myself just to get the good ones. I ended up buying the AI prime after all.
OH and the biggie, pulling/treating ANY new frags for algae. I had a breakout of bryopsis. Before I got the cowrie snail, I was pulling out my hair daily. For me, part of the fun of reefing is never quite knowing what's going to appear out of the liverock - but I've found some Aiptasia, including some real monsters, and am battling Bryopsis, so I know where you're coming from! Cowries eat Bryopsis, huh? Hmmmm . . .

What's absolutely indispensable - indeed, what would you have doubled up on?--It would have to be my nitrate reactor and skimmer combo lol I cant live without it because I stock on the heavy side a feed my corals a lot. Im not really that into fish/inverts but I adore all my coral so they get babied. One thing that makes my life easy is a circulation pump inside my mixing bucket. I add salt and walk away for a bit. When I come back its mixed Oh, and RODI is an absolute must. I made up the original 25 gallons with regular tap water plus the de chlorinator. I had algae blooms for dayssss before I figured out what it was. Good to hear! I'll definitely look into nitrate reactors (biopellets churning in a bottle, yes?), 'cause I like fish _and_ corals! I've been using a skimmer (got a better/bigger one on the way for the new build), RO/DI and a circulation pump in the Brute since the beginning - they're awesome!

What would you have left out entirely, or what's just not that important?--I feel like I would have either left out sand or put in more circulation. I also would have thought harder about what fish I wanted to put in there. I put in a pair of clowns before I knew about snowflake clowns so I tore down my scape to get them out. This is key ... to really plan out stocking choices carefully, for our happiness and theirs!

What would make your reefing life easier, if you could re-design it from scratch?--having a sump instead of an AIO WITH a fuge. If Im dreaming...I would make a water station so that when I needed water changes, I could just bring over a hose to drain old water and then bring a hose with a pump to pump in fresh SW. My system is small but I still use 5 gallon buckets lol Five gallon buckets. Handy, they are - but they do get heavy after a dozen trips back and forth! My son has told me I should get one of those "Python" gadgets . . .

How would you sump it? Plumb it? Light it? Stock it? Feed it?--I dont know much about plumbing but I would definitely add a refugion with DSB and filter socks I love having a refugium (two, actually) on my system. In addition to allowing me to keep dragonets and other pod-hunters, it's just pretty cool to peek in there and check out what's growing, undisturbed! I keep a magnifying glass next to mine, and can easily spend 15 or 20 minutes examining its little residents.

Good luck!

I would keep it simple.
DT:
The largest tank you can afford or you can fit you your house
Bare bottom tank
Pukani rock
T5 + LED lights
Wave makers

Sump:
Filter socks
Skimmer (a good one)
Return pumps (more than one)
Heaters (2 or 3 small ones)

Other:
Apex
DOS for dosing 2 part
DOS (or Stenner) for AWC
Holding tanks (for Saltwater mix and RODI)
Whole house standby generator / or batteries if you use ecotech or gyre
UPS for router and Apex (so you will always have internet and will always receive messages from apex)
I would make my own ATO with plenty redundancy and safeguards.

I believe in redundancy, stability, and monitoring.

Cb684, you make some very important points here - especially about the heaters and generators, I think . . . Thank you!

I would not have tried a closed loop system. I would have put the sump in the basement first off instead of a couple years later. I would have created a vent to the outside in the basement cuz now I cannot close the fish room door due to heat. Most of the rest is fine. Sometimes I wish I had never introduced gorgs. Not because I do not love my system, but because I cannot add some of my favorite lps species. I have to keep separate tanks. Just bums me out sometimes.

Gorgonians and LPS don't get along?! The basement sump idea sounds inviting - if well beyond my comfort zone! It was also suggested by the owner of my fave LFS - then again, he was trying to sell me a three-foot-tall skimmer at the time! Thanks, DeniseAndy!

Hmmmm ok I would go for a drilled tank with sump. Not a all in one. I would also invest in apex with leak detection......

If I were to start over I would do it with a much smaller system. Something along the lines of a 30g all in one with a bare bottom. I would use this system to learn the basics and eventually become a frag/invert QT for a larger DT later.
Starting with a 6ft, 120g tank for a first aquarium has been overwhelming at times. I've been relatively successful so far but I acknowledge much of that has been luck.

Interesting that some folks who have all-in-ones wish for drilled-with-sumps, and some who have drilled-with-sumps long for all-in-ones. Kind of wonder which side the grass really _is_ greener on! I agree that a smaller, yet "big enough to be forgiving" system might be best to learn the ropes with - Thank you, LadySabertooth & Brew12!

What's absolutely indispensable - indeed, what would you have doubled up on?

Reef Controller - Whatever brand makes you happy. I have old-school ReefKeeper II's, and they meet my needs. Easy to program and have no interest in having it communicate with my phone.

As much automation as possible....such as dosing pumps; auto water changing; etc.

I can see where that lets you relax a bit and just enjoy the beauty of your aquatic microcosm - Someday, I think that would be a _very_ cool thing to have!


What would you have left out entirely, or what's just not that important?

No softies (maybe a couple zoas) but certainly no clove polyps, mushrooms, star polys and any monti cap....a weed I tell you! Ah, the importance of doing a bit of proper research before turning a living thing loose in the garden!


How would you sump it? Plumb it? Light it? Stock it? Feed it?

Sump - took me three sumps to get it "right", but my sump has no bubble traps....didn't need them. This doesn't mean you could get away with it.....it's just that my skimmer (SWC160) doesn't put out any microbubbles. Oh, and it's a DIY sump, and a 40 Breeder is an excellent tank for a DIY sump....fixs all that needs to be there.

Plumb - Go with a DC pump ( I have a Waveline). Like the DC part....less heat than the MAG it replaced....and the slow start....and that it's adjustable.

Lights - Maybe I'm the oddball, but I like my LED's. Started with T5's and didn't like the heat and yearly bulb costs. And yes, I did notice that some of my corals morphed in color....but they still make me happy.

Stocking - That's personal preference (and dictated by tank size and who gets along together). So that's up to you. I personally don't like lionfish and foxfaces....but that's me.

Feed it - Variety. I alternate between flake, and multiple frozen foods (mysis, blackworm, homemade, table shrimp, lobster)

RedfishBluefish, I think we share at least some of the same tastes in lighting, fishes and feeding them - though I'd be hard-pressed not to keep that lobster for myself! Thanks for chiming in!

I would simplify. tank, sump, skimmer, ATO and lights. No socks. I would have made my sump larger if I could do it over again (more room to work in).

Definitively no mushrooms, cheap zoa's. and nuclear green palys. Can't give them away fast enough. Just donated 200-300 polyps to the LFS because it was that or throw them in the trash. I have to thin them down every 3-4 months and none of my friends want them anymore.

I would use cheap Chinese LED's from the start. Have used MH, t5's, and LED's. Like the Chinese LED's the best. Cheap to buy and cheaper to run. Have not noticed any change in growth since switching.

I liked my small tanks, but should have gone big from the beginning. Lots of $$$ wasted setting up a 40g, 29g 55g, 60g, 75g, and a 125g. Should have started with at least a 200g.

Jebao pumps. Love the power heads and the DC pumps. I have used these since they have come out and have not had a failure yet. If they all crap out tomorrow I'm still ahead by a at least $500.

If I win the Lotto I will add a controller. I have been keeping Saltwater since 1992 and have not felt the need for one yet. I understand the benefit, but with 3 kids about to go to college I can't justify the expense. Plus I enjoy playing with my tank.

I may add a Calcium reactor in the future once the Kalk in my top off water no longer keeps up.

No expensive fish. There is a proportional relationship between how expensive a fish is and how quickly it dies.

No socks? I'm somewhat intrigued! What takes care of the solid wastes and the detritus that socks pull from the water column for you? I've already got some 'shrooms and palys - I'll have to try and isolate them on an island, because I've already experienced a taste of the damage they can cause. Your point about Jebao is well-taken - they seem to perform well enough to get the job done, at a price that can allow someone to run a reef instead of a goldfish tank! Thanks for sharing your thoughts, Kendavjac!

I would go with a 48x48x24 cube with T5/LED hybrid lighting, plumb more through
the bottom of the tank for flow so I can remove flow pumps with wires in the tank.

Try and learn how to program an APEX because I am computer stupid.. I currently
use the old faithful timers with the green on / red off tabs for everything.

That would be a delightful tank, Tom! I think it'd be cool to 'scape that, allowing fish to move through the reef the way they do in the ocean; in three dimensions, rather than back-and-forth, up-and-down. The only thing I don't love about the on/off of timers is the startled jump from the swimmers when the lights suddenly come on or off.

im already running my do over system for 1.5 yrs now and the changes to the prior system made all the difference. it was the simplest changeup ever...making a modular/removable scape.

that one factor alone...making rock stacks that are literally removable outside the tank, changed my reefing enjoyment 100%. it means you don't have to dose the water for all the common reef rock maladies. If the new additives on the market offering to cure any known invader (algae, inverts etc) works out then even modular scapes wont be needed. But its amazing being algae free and invader free forever using no retail items as well. when valonia came, I lifted out my rocks and hacked it off, then it didn't spread.

"Modular 'scape" - Are your rocks glued into large-but-liftable sections that can be easily removed and replaced when needed? Clever, Brandon429!

I just did this. I have built 6 systems during my reef life and I walked away for a bit because thing just didnt go my way. I came back and decided I am going to take allll the things I have learned over the years and all the things I have regretted not doing while building my system and implementing them in this build.

Excellent!

Would've gone with a bigger tank and a sump setup rather than all in one. Granted those two aspects make the tank exponentially more expensive and that's why I didn't go with that setup. But if I had to do it again I would've found a way hahaha. Gonna end up upgrading everything probably in a year or two

Nickenayat, I hear ya! When I looked at my current reef a year ago, I thought it a fun size, and that an upgrade wouldn't be needed.

So much for that!

Thank you, everyone, for sharing your thoughts, experiences and ideas!

~Bruce

 

[RMS18]

I would start off with dry sand and dry rock.

I would qt all corals for 30 days and using my same dipping process.

I will never go with a 12 inch foot print tank again.

I will make sure the tank is drilled no more hob overflows.

I would go with t5/led not led only.

I would also build the aquascape with acrylic rods so rocks can not be knocked over.

Will also have hole drilled all over rocks the size for frag plugs so it's easier to move frags around when acclimating to higher pars.

I would use pvc and not clear vyinal tubing as algea builds and looks gross.

And lastly a much much better design on the sump. I hate my aqueon sump.

 

[Daniel@R2R Verified Admin]

If you were setting up a new system, knowing what you've learned from your "now" system, what would you do differently?

What's absolutely indispensable - indeed, what would you have doubled up on?

What would you have left out entirely, or what's just not that important?

What would make your reefing life easier, if you could re-design it from scratch?

How would you sump it? Plumb it? Light it? Stock it? Feed it?

Do I have a reason for asking? An ulterior motive?

Yep. I'm assembling the ingredients to upgrade my 65 gallon high-nitrate reef into a 220 gallon reef-ready glass box. I'd just as soon get it as close to "right" as I can the first time - or at least the second time!

For instance, I'm only going to port over half of my "Fiji Mud", and likely won't purchase any new mud. (And if I did, I'd place it in containers I could lift out of my sump, instead of smearing the bottom of the sump with it!)

I'm going to be using a more powerful skimmer, and may eventually install some "reactors" for carbon, GFO and biopellets. (Currently, I've got carbon/GFO in a bag, which is OK, but . . . )

Having experienced the joy of high nitrates, (and with the self-generated "pressure" to stock the tank somewhat reduced) I think I'll be adding fish and other livestock more slowly in the future.

Having experienced the delight that is Cryptocaryon irritans, I'll continue to run a QT - but now I can have a skimmer on it if I want, 'cause I'm getting a new skimmer for the big box.

If you had it to do again, how would you do it?

~Bruce

Great questions! Since I'm in "build mode" myself, I've been thinking through a lot of these. I think several points that have helped have been:

Begin with the end in mind, and build the stand, sump, plumbing, etc. based on what I plan to have rather than what I currently have. I've run out of space before or had to place equipment in less than ideal layouts because I didn't plan it all out first.

I wanted a nice sump, so I planned for my equipment area to be "display quality" (whether or not that ACTUALLY works out for me is yet to be seen). I'm even color matching my plumbing. LOL

For lights, I'm going with a radion G3 on my 50g cube. For flow, I'm planning for a Vectra M1 return and a couple of MP10's in the DT.

In the sump, I won't be running a fuge or anything that puts off constant light bc I want to minimize algae growth there. I'll be running an enclosed ATS (that is opaque so no escaping light) and a skimmer for export. I also have the new sump by @geo, so I'll be using the reactor that comes built into the sump for carbon and/or gfo (I'm thinking carbon at this point).

I bought an aquascape kit from MarcoRocks.com so that I can build my scape exactly as I want it with arches and shelves. (I haven't done this yet, so we'll see if I actually achieve what I'm hoping for.) I also bought Eden Tropic mesoflakes & reefflakes for the substrate (I chose this specific substrate for color, weight/size, and usefulness for my livestock).