Indonesia Situation

[Sarah24!]

All well and good for folks to get on their soap box when they have not been there and done the work to know the real situation. Easy enough to say, oh well, too bad, you'll adapt. I have set up mariculture farms in several locations, worked with the locals, took the time to know their issues and culture. With all due respect, unless you have you don't know what you're talking about. The folks that do this work on these small islands often have no other means of income. The propagation of corals is set up by guys like me to indeed be sustainable and quickly have no impact on wild populations. In the areas I've set up these farms there are enough corals in one lagoon, as far as the eye can see in every direction, to supply the worldwide coral trade for probably 20+ years if it were just harvested and never cultured-thats just in one relatively small lagoon. Think of it being done cultured and sustainably, and also how many thousands of such lagoons exist. To say you are glad it's shutting down or that this is needed to save the reefs or planet, with all due respect is nonsense and ignorant. So, tell the poor locals tough luck, the ones that relied on the coral trade to survive that now will go out and do whatever they must to provide for themselves and their families, maybe something that is destructive to the reef. You see, we taught them that the reef in their backyard was valuable and so they respected it just a bit more. I've been intimately involved in aquaculture for 18+ years and in this trade since 1965. Money is not the problem, stupidity is. Shutting down the worldwide trade in corals affects many thousands of people. The hobbyist with corals in his tank that is growing them and selling them is great, but don't lose sight of all the folks involved that got those corals into that hobbyists hands and when no more new genetics are available lets see what happens.

But I have fallen into the trap of responding to nonsense, this was intended as an info thread not a PC debate thread. But now that it has fallen into such, carry on with the chatter.

Hello,

I totally agree with what you have posted and for one try to keep it with information only. Honestly I have not been able to read any of the articles or keep up on this. One of the reasons I have a mixed reef is because I do love the ocean and love the nature in reefs.

Like anything in nature such as Forrest’s, rain Forrest’s, animals we as humans have shown a trend to try and save things after we kinda destroy it. At the same time such as forests sometimes clear cutting the dead ones and what not does help it And keeps it disease free. I’m certain this is the same as coral which you have mentioned above.

It’s sad when politics always has a motive based on their political stance. Either it’s money, or something political, but one thing not on their list of importance is the poor people who it affects. I have never been there are to help them, but I have helped lots of people who do not have money to even live. These individuals who do this, as you stated is their only source of money and food. As the pics show it’s not like they are even getting rich or maybe past poverty still. As you mentioned, it’s not okay, these kids work adult hours, at the age of 10 or less. I mean really, it would be nice if they could be just kids. But, sadly this is where the world is going in parts of the world.

 

[TerraFerma]

I actually agree with this, but maybe for a different reason.

To be able to collect, transport within the country of origin, and to export, licenses and permits are required. To be able to import, licenses, permits, and inspections are required. All this is fee based and costly. If violations are made along the way fines and prison time follow. Yes, folks have gone to federal prison violating laws regarding importation of corals. Corals are considered endangered animals. HOWEVER, once those very same corals arrive here, any and every ignorant fool can sell, buy, transport, kill them with no regulations what so ever. Seems a bit lopsided, regulations and ramifications galore on the acquisition side, no one cares on the husbandry side once imported.

Interesting point. You have to have a CITIES permit to transport a Radiated Tortoise across state lines. But once the corals land the regulatory agencies could care less what becomes of them.

 

[Sarah24!]

Hello,

In terms of reading the articles, based on the information I read from them, and my honest opinion at the moment is something triggered this. Yes, Susi Pudjiastut has worked in the fishing industry etc point proven and she has helped the fishing grow in size and decreased in poaching, that point has been proven. Yet, with her attempting to run for Vice President in the up coming election, this may be politically motivated. Do to the sense they have seized and blown up Chinese fishing boats (stated in The NY Times article a little bit of a nut case) for poaching in their waters. Yet both governments claim that it’s their waters in which sadly Susi Pudjiastut does have a fair point in regards that their ancestors sailed further to catch fish, and they don’t get to claim their waters, since the Chinese are saying these are ancestral waters where the ban is taking affect. It honestly sounds like two gov bodies where ornamental fish and coral export and fishing export are the main sources of the trade (well between 50-60%).

As it states that the gov bodies in Indonesia are sorting things out, I think personally is a smoke screen. This is a huge market to them, in which either they are doing this to make even more money possibly, or get even or one up against China. Susi Pudjiastut, has not backed off on her efforts and even other cabinet officials have spoken in forms of concern (see other articles posted in thread for reference).
In true aspect of this, it just bloody well sucks for all of us, from the workers, companies, to the stores and reefers.

The pure fact of the matter that Indonesia controls 50-60 percent, there is no way they will stay out of this. They will more than likely do a blanket ban, wait for an environmental impact study, which costs a lot (aka Hawaii was est 300,000), and how many months. Even after the study was done, most of the officials didn’t even read it, they just did what they wanted to. Susi Pudjiastut will either block it completely because of on going issues with China and or use this to make a lot more money. I can see banning wild coral to protect the reefs, but farmed exported coral only brings income and creates jobs.

Will be interesting to see, what the actual motive is, which is why maybe so many people are hushed on it, and or reason why there are no actual definitive answer.

 

[Rispa]

Sorry to detour your thread.

To make things simple the way I see them.
I wanted to buy a parrot a while ago. We talked to a store. They said, " after we go through like 6 months of training we could than buy the bird."
It really made me think twice and I didn't go through with it. I didn't have the passion for it.

Reef is different? I was so surprised when I walked into a fish store and I could take the living tank home with no certification.

Your second post after mine, was more along the lines of what I meant.

I see your passion. And deffinatly not pointing my finger at you. Just I see a lot of ridiculousness in this hobby.

I don't know what bird store you went to, but I'm willing to bet that it either primarily does its business in Dry Goods or they will be out of business before you know it.

Ask for permits it is ridiculous. It's not as bad as it is for other endangered species like birds, but it is ridiculous. Having expensive permits that only zoos and universities can acquire means that you limit severely the resources that you have for keeping these animals. You also limit the genetic diversity that is easily accessible for the few private individuals who are keeping these animals. The zoos and universities tend to need whatever they're working on to be big money makers. For example a zoo is going to dedicate a lot more resources to a rhinoceros then it will too a couple of hooded parakeets because they are iconic and people get really excited over them. This also applies to Coral. There is actually a conservation effort for the red siskin that is incorporating private individuals and it is having a great amount of success. If we can successfully do something like that then there should be no problem worldwide with endangered species being kept alive at least in captivity.

Additionally we are talking about how the fact that these poor people can make money off of the reefs makes the reefs valuable and worth protecting. This doesn't just apply to poor people. This also applies to the wealthy people. If you make something valuable, then they're willing to spend resources on it. For example I was reading somewhere other, possibly here, that here in Texas there used to be a bunch of big game ranches that had so many of some endangered hoof stock that there was more here than in the wild. Laws were passed and they can no longer be used for hunting. Now there are very few left. We need to remember human nature when planning for conservation.

 

[siggy]

You are welcome to make the journey and tell these kids that sustainable aquaculture is all about evil money, they'd probably agree with you. Just watch yourself though, cannibalism is still around

LOL Doc! Question for you, These areas that have been set up look to be sand flats? What will happen to the corals and structures if left unattended for a long period? These flats had no natural REEF to start with so i'm thinking it would be susceptible to typhoons and other natural events

I don't know what bird store you went to, but I'm willing to bet that it either primarily does its business in Dry Goods or they will be out of business before you know it.

I walked into a exotic bird store that must have been 10k square feet( play land for birds ) I started talking to a worker or owner and when my wife and kids walked in and he realized the size of my household he just walked away. Birds are nervous creatures and not for everyone

 

[PacificEastAquaculture]

LOL Doc! Question for you, These areas that have been set up look to be sand flats? What will happen to the corals and structures if left unattended for a long period? These flats had no natural REEF to start with so i'm thinking it would be susceptible to typhoons and other natural events

No doubt major storms wreck the farms, but most are in protected areas and unless its a typhoon they hold up well. The problem now becomes that many of the farms have let go workers so the corals overgrow or get covered by other marine life and no one is there to tend to them. With no income since May and none in the foreseeable future its very bleak indeed for the farms that already have a significant investment and had no warning of the shut down so no chance to regroup or alter their business.

 

[Sarah24!]

No doubt major storms wreck the farms, but most are in protected areas and unless its a typhoon they hold up well. The problem now becomes that many of the farms have let go workers so the corals overgrow or get covered by other marine life and no one is there to tend to them. With no income since May and none in the foreseeable future its very bleak indeed for the farms that already have a significant investment and had no warning of the shut down so no chance to regroup or alter their business.

Hello,

I’m curious as to why Susi Pudjiastut actually did this knowing this. I mean she is all about saving the fish and protecting the species and their live stock. I mean she grow up in a fishing community and supposedly very poor and traditional. One would think it’s kinda of well obvious of what can happen and money that can be lost. All because two government agencies within Indonesia are not having as much control. Well they just lost all control, because now nobody is there. Not only are the government agencies slow to respond anyway, but now if it’s actually because of China who knows how long and now they want an environmental impact study. Sorry me would think she would realize going into this, and the fact she is trying to run for Vice President. Except within Indonesia their can not be two people of power in power with out a high school education which neither have. Not to mention the locals who if they even vote or know the process, why would they even vote for her? So again the logic makes zero sense, even political.

 

[PacificEastAquaculture]

Hello,

I’m curious as to why Susi Pudjiastut actually did this knowing this. I mean she is all about saving the fish and protecting the species and their live stock. I mean she grow up in a fishing community and supposedly very poor and traditional. One would think it’s kinda of well obvious of what can happen and money that can be lost. All because two government agencies within Indonesia are not having as much control. Well they just lost all control, because now nobody is there. Not only are the government agencies slow to respond anyway, but now if it’s actually because of China who knows how long and now they want an environmental impact study. Sorry me would think she would realize going into this, and the fact she is trying to run for Vice President. Except within Indonesia their can not be two people of power in power with out a high school education which neither have. Not to mention the locals who if they even vote or know the process, why would they even vote for her? So again the logic makes zero sense, even political.

The guys in Indo throw up their hands and shake their heads as well. However, the industry there has not always policed itself as effectively as it should. The constant pressure by hobbyists everywhere for something new and spectacular puts monetary incentive to skirt rules. Governments will gladly step in when industries don't control themselves effectively. All it takes is the wrong person in the wrong place at the wrong time in front of the wrong official and voila, instant shut down.

 

[Sarah24!]

The guys in Indo throw up their hands and shake their heads as well. However, the industry there has not always policed itself as effectively as it should. The constant pressure by hobbyists everywhere for something new and spectacular puts monetary incentive to skirt rules. Governments will gladly step in when industries don't control themselves effectively. All it takes is the wrong person in the wrong place at the wrong time in front of the wrong official and voila, instant shut down.

Hello,

Which when it comes to monetary value it’s going to make things worse because people have to survive. Knowing the hobbyist will pay large sums of money for coral, how many do you think will do this on the side. They can’t be watched all the time, they do not have the resources or money to do so.

So now coral poaching is going to sky rocket because people will pay lots of money. They have 11 zones I believe that are controlled and not not to mention the new farmed ones. Wouldn’t take much for some to start a new farm I mean ten miles down, unless they put barriers in to protect said reefs. Granted I have never set one up or worked one, but I can’t imagine it’s too hard (far from simple) but a small group could always get together and say let’s do it this way. If we look at all the protections we have in place for rhinos and tigers etc and people are still dumb enough to poach them. The last group of rhino poachers were killed and eaten by a group of lions the conservativation had inserted as protection. (Sorry it’s harsh but they bloody deserved it, kinda puts humans back in their place). But it only takes one person to form a group willing to survive and those knowing they have families to feed (which now is worse for their families). But the problems this introduces is beyond the scope of even remotely rational. With Susi Pudjiastut such a traditional conservative, she either knows this, and something triggered it, or she is really trying to prove she has more power than she does. When it comes to this most of the time in her position she has been extremely steadfast on her decisions which is absolutely scary.

 

[PacificEastAquaculture]

Hello,

Which when it comes to monetary value it’s going to make things worse because people have to survive. Knowing the hobbyist will pay large sums of money for coral, how many do you think will do this on the side. They can’t be watched all the time, they do not have the resources or money to do so.

So now coral poaching is going to sky rocket because people will pay lots of money. They have 11 zones I believe that are controlled and not not to mention the new farmed ones. Wouldn’t take much for some to start a new farm I mean ten miles down, unless they put barriers in to protect said reefs. Granted I have never set one up or worked one, but I can’t imagine it’s too hard (far from simple) but a small group could always get together and say let’s do it this way. If we look at all the protections we have in place for rhinos and tigers etc and people are still dumb enough to poach them. The last group of rhino poachers were killed and eaten by a group of lions the conservativation had inserted as protection. (Sorry it’s harsh but they bloody deserved it, kinda puts humans back in their place). But it only takes one person to form a group willing to survive and those knowing they have families to feed (which now is worse for their families). But the problems this introduces is beyond the scope of even remotely rational. With Susi Pudjiastut such a traditional conservative, she either knows this, and something triggered it, or she is really trying to prove she has more power than she does. When it comes to this most of the time in her position she has been extremely steadfast on her decisions which is absolutely scary.

Not sure if I understand you completely , but no one is going to get anything out from Indonesia. Without a health certificate no shipment will ride out on a plane and Fisheries controls the health certificates.

 

[dodgerblew]

Doesn't this ban Dr. Mac also affect employment stateside as well? With diminished imports coming in are the U.S.wholesalers having to scale down the workforce from sales department to the order pullers, baggers, drivers etc?

 

[dodgerblew]

Is this affecting your work force too?

 

[PacificEastAquaculture]

Doesn't this ban Dr. Mac also affect employment stateside as well? With diminished imports coming in are the U.S.wholesalers having to scale down the workforce from sales department to the order pullers, baggers, drivers etc?

I don't know about the US wholesalers, not that close with too many. In our case, we have actually hired more during this time, redoubling our propagation work. We've always run a tight ship and done lots of aquaculture, and now is no different. We have a huge amount of genetics in our tanks and been stockpiling for a while. We have extremely low overhead costs to operate our facility and are positioned well. Just launched a new and improved website and doing better than ever. While we had built a good wholesale business with me hand picking in Indonesia, that has now gone away, but we have stepped up other areas. As the reality of the depressed variety of supply hits the hobbyist level prices will naturally rise and those positioned well will benefit at least in the mid term. Long term survivability will be determined by true level of sustainability.

 

[GQuinn]

Dr. Mac, thanks for all your insight about this situation.

 

[dodgerblew]

An Indonesian coral farm:

https://www.dropbox.com/s/oji074dk2d3djw8/Indonesia Coral Farms.m4v?dl=0

unbelievably cool video and thank you for sharing. Several things I noticed from viewing it. I saw no signs of an actual reef, it was like watching a video of an incredibly huge frag tank, if you will. The government should be grateful for this not ban it. I also noticed that in the absence of a reef, there's a huge abundance of fish. It's incredible how they found it. I guess it proves if you build it they will come. Talk about a field of dreams! There's nothing but positivity I see watching the video

 

[dodgerblew]

I don't know about the US wholesalers, not that close with too many. In our case, we have actually hired more during this time, redoubling our propagation work. We've always run a tight ship and done lots of aquaculture, and now is no different. We have a huge amount of genetics in our tanks and been stockpiling for a while. We have extremely low overhead costs to operate our facility and are positioned well. Just launched a new and improved website and doing better than ever. While we had built a good wholesale business with me hand picking in Indonesia, that has now gone away, but we have stepped up other areas. As the reality of the depressed variety of supply hits the hobbyist level prices will naturally rise and those positioned well will benefit at least in the mid term. Long term survivability will be determined by true level of sustainability.

Thank you for the reply and an overall thank you to you

 

[PacificEastAquaculture]

Thank you for the reply and an overall thank you to you

After this many years in the trade and seen and heard every possible story many times, I guess I'm definitely not as PC as some and more open than many. Probably getting close to a true retirement soon so if anything the shut downs benefit a potential business sale in the future. All the thousands of corals we now sit on and propagate get more valuable by the day. Part of me says keep it shut baby, the other side says I miss my buddies over in Indo and believe it or not I miss the 27 hours of flying to get there and the adventure once there.

 

[PacificEastAquaculture]

For those of you that might be interested in hearing more about my adventures, check my blog on our new website:
https://pacificeastaquaculture.com/pages/coral-and-clam-farming

 

[danreefman]

Hey Doc,
After reading and thinking this over. I'm just born and raised American! I try to keep my money local. If I can't I at least try to keep it in the USA. I run my company with zero illegals.

Not racist, just American. We fly our flag high in my home.

Regardless of saving the ocean, we have enough here in the states to choose from. Honestly our homegrown corals would do better reseeding the ocean, than stuff grown in the ocean. Stuff in our tanks is used to the swings.

You have some nice pics with your friends. You can always go back to visit. Seems though that now there is no money involved they are just memories.

 

[danreefman]

It's all good to make a buck. I just seems that In a hobby where we are caring for live animals, the lives aren't as important as the money. It's just all business now less hobby it seems.