Is A CUC Worth It?

[Forsaken77]

Personally, I don't have a clean up crew because my fish will eat them. But I have a question.

Aside of sand sifters, do regular snails and crabs offer a benefit? I ask this because I once had an Abalone and while it ate algae, it crapped out just as much as it ate. So even though these animals eat the algae, they create waste and detritus themselves.

Also because most snails are temperate, and cannot live long in a tropical tank, you have them dying and rotting if not noticed in time.

Does the end justifies the means in the bigger picture of removing undesirable "stuff" from the tank? I use herbivorous fish for the rocks (which I would have regardless and the algae eating is a bonus) and manually scrape the glass, syphon the sand.

Anybody find them invaluable? Has anybody switched from having a CUC to not having any?

 

[lion king]

A CUC is very overrated in my opinion. In some cases I have had some perform very well; a tuxedo urchin can leave your rocks sparkling, I've had some turbo snails clean up a turf algae problem I had once, and I couldn't live without an emerald crab in my reef because of bubble algae. I think for the most part people expect too much, they only help with some aesthetics but you still have to put in some work. Some people who overfeed and don't have fish to hunt the leftovers all day; may benefit from nasarrius snails or hermits. It takes a much closer look at what you need and expectations, following a formula like so many of this or that per gallon, is just pure bunk. When you follow that formula instead of a specific need, most of those guys die off from starvation and just dirty up your tank. I have tanks with and without, I'm in Vegas, I'll bet you, you couldn't tell the difference which is which.

 

[Dennis McGrath]

There's a fine balance with having a CUC in your tank. First, you need to make sure you don't have anything that's going to go Rogue and start munching on your corals.
Next you need to find the proper number for your tank. If you have too many, there won't be enough food, and you know where that leads.
It's better to start small, then add additional members as needed.

 

[mcarroll]

Personally, I don't have a clean up crew

I use herbivorous fish

You're wrong twice since you use herbivorous fish AND even before fish everyone has a CUC – the tank keeper is always the #1 CUC.

But seriously...

Snails are good at what they do. But if you don't have algae, you don't need them. "Worth it" is moot.

If you have algae, you'd rather have snails than do all the work yourself.

Also, if you have a small tank, you'd not gonna have an algae eating fish more than likely....so snails are The Man.

 

[Forsaken77]

You're wrong twice since you use herbivorous fish AND even before fish everyone has a CUC – the tank keeper is always the #1 CUC.

But seriously...

Snails are good at what they do. But if you don't have algae, you don't need them. "Worth it" is moot.

If you have algae, you'd rather have snails than do all the work yourself.

Also, if you have a small tank, you'd not gonna have an algae eating fish more than likely....so snails are The Man.

;Hilarious That's why I said I'd have those fish regardless, just for you .

I'm getting ready to finish up my 180 build (because my surgery is finally healing) and have a lot of very fine sand. Going from a 93 cube to a 180 may be a little more work as far as maintenance is concerned.

I would need some sand sifters (was thinking about a pair of diamond goby's), and maybe something for the glass and rocks that won't spawn, leave snot trails, and most importantly... won't leave the tank.

Any ideas?

 

[Forsaken77]

A CUC is very overrated in my opinion. In some cases I have had some perform very well; a tuxedo urchin can leave your rocks sparkling, I've had some turbo snails clean up a turf algae problem I had once, and I couldn't live without an emerald crab in my reef because of bubble algae. I think for the most part people expect too much, they only help with some aesthetics but you still have to put in some work. Some people who overfeed and don't have fish to hunt the leftovers all day; may benefit from nasarrius snails or hermits. It takes a much closer look at what you need and expectations, following a formula like so many of this or that per gallon, is just pure bunk. When you follow that formula instead of a specific need, most of those guys die off from starvation and just dirty up your tank. I have tanks with and without, I'm in Vegas, I'll bet you, you couldn't tell the difference which is which.

Do you have any experience with Halloween Urchins? Another user said 1 of those is equivalent to 5 Tuxedo's. Don't know if that's true or not.

I'm moving to a much larger tank soon (180) as was considering if I should add anything, especially sand sifters. My brother has some Conch's that look pretty cool, but they only do the glass at the sand level. My 93 cube is very manageable doing it on my own, but a 6 foot tank... I may need some assistance eventually.

I not one of those people that would add anything I don't need or too many of something. I just don't want an Urchin chewing up my Vortech's, lol.

 

[mcarroll]

maybe something for the glass and rocks that won't spawn, leave snot trails, and most importantly... won't leave the tank.

Nothing will do a satisfactory job on the front glass, IMO. If cleaning that by hand is an issue, then changing your lights so the glass isn't lit up is the correct answer.

Everything healthy will be spawning...

The upside is that those that do (and who succeed at it) will regulate their population in sync with the algae load – automagically.

Plus, I can't see worrying about those things when you have algae, which of course is exactly when you need snails – no algae, no need for snails.

I'm a firm believer in managing nutrients on the front end via fish population.

Not the back end with extra filtration or with snails.

A little algae will always grow transiently in any system, and this sounds like all we're talking about addressing with CUC in yours. It doesn't take a lot of CUC in all systems. Also, in a large tank you have a lot more herbivore fish to select from – not just snails.

2¢

 

[Forsaken77]

DP

 

[hotashes]

@mcarroll best snails for gha?

 

[Dr. Reef Verified Sponsor]

very much over rated. most dont make it through shipping and acclimation then rest half will die off sooner or later. if someone want a crew they should have little bit of algae at all times in their tanks and keep 1/4th or even less of any suggested pack for your tank size.
in my tanks i keep nitrates at 2-5 ppm and phos 0-0.03 so there is always a little algae here and there in my tanks whic is kept mowed down by tangs and rest by 5 turbo snails and maybe 10 of few other species. so a total of 15 snails in 300 gal.

 

[mcarroll]

@mcarroll best snails for gha?

Herbivores of all types. What does your LFS carry?

 

[mitch91175]

Do you have any experience with Halloween Urchins? Another user said 1 of those is equivalent to 5 Tuxedo's. Don't know if that's true or not.

I'm moving to a much larger tank soon (180) as was considering if I should add anything, especially sand sifters. My brother has some Conch's that look pretty cool, but they only do the glass at the sand level. My 93 cube is very manageable doing it on my own, but a 6 foot tank... I may need some assistance eventually.

I not one of those people that would add anything I don't need or too many of something. I just don't want an Urchin chewing up my Vortech's, lol.

Knowing what I do now comparing no sand to tanks with sand, I personally would say to avoid the sand all together and make yourself a zoa garden on the bottom of the tank (depending on the direction you are taking with the build). At that point, your zoa garden will be your bottom feeders once they have covered the bottom of the tank (that's for all fish poop and food that makes it to the bottom). Also get some trochus and conch snails and call it a day. Without sand, you'll be able to have much more flow in the tank and if you are gonna keep SPS, they will love you for not having any sand because you'll be able to blast them with flow. I just recently made the switch over myself from sand to bare bottom and love that I finally made that decision. No more worrying about detritus buildup in the sand bed (and I had 2 sand shifting stars and 2 engineer gobies that kept the sand clean, but the still missed stuff).

I now have SPS frags throughout the tank that are doing extremely well (so well that I am having to try to play catch up with the alk/cal consumption). My zoas are all on the bottom and I love looking at them just as much as the SPS. With the sand, I now feel that I had a lot of wasted space in my tank and if I put zoas on rockwork, they would eventually take over the rock(s), but not as much a concern with the bottom of the tank.

 

[lion king]

Do you have any experience with Halloween Urchins? Another user said 1 of those is equivalent to 5 Tuxedo's. Don't know if that's true or not.

I'm moving to a much larger tank soon (180) as was considering if I should add anything, especially sand sifters. My brother has some Conch's that look pretty cool, but they only do the glass at the sand level. My 93 cube is very manageable doing it on my own, but a 6 foot tank... I may need some assistance eventually.

I not one of those people that would add anything I don't need or too many of something. I just don't want an Urchin chewing up my Vortech's, lol.

I'd be careful with the fine sand, I ended up sucking all the sand out of my 210. You are going to want some good flow, large fish don't like a still tank, and you'll have a sand storm. Urchins aren't going to tear anything up, other than ripping up your corals and wearing them as hats. My tuxedo always seem to have a zoa hat, they are pretty rough, so all frags need to glued down, this is probably their #1 knock. The halloween looks cool, another thing, an urchin needs food, don't add one until there is definitely a good food source. I run nopox on my 210 and being rather clean, I had a tuxedo starve in that tank.

I have a conch in my 90 reef, he's always working. But with the amount of results, I'd likely not miss him if he weren't there.. The thing about this guy is the snout, some of your larger fish may chomp him up. Turbo snails are the bomb, but I've got some that are literally the size of a half dollar.

 

[Forsaken77]

Knowing what I do now comparing no sand to tanks with sand, I personally would say to avoid the sand all together and make yourself a zoa garden on the bottom of the tank (depending on the direction you are taking with the build). At that point, your zoa garden will be your bottom feeders once they have covered the bottom of the tank (that's for all fish poop and food that makes it to the bottom). Also get some trochus and conch snails and call it a day. Without sand, you'll be able to have much more flow in the tank and if you are gonna keep SPS, they will love you for not having any sand because you'll be able to blast them with flow. I just recently made the switch over myself from sand to bare bottom and love that I finally made that decision. No more worrying about detritus buildup in the sand bed (and I had 2 sand shifting stars and 2 engineer gobies that kept the sand clean, but the still missed stuff).

I now have SPS frags throughout the tank that are doing extremely well (so well that I am having to try to play catch up with the alk/cal consumption). My zoas are all on the bottom and I love looking at them just as much as the SPS. With the sand, I now feel that I had a lot of wasted space in my tank and if I put zoas on rockwork, they would eventually take over the rock(s), but not as much a concern with the bottom of the tank.

I would LOVE to have a bare bottom. Unfortunately I can't because I have Wrasses.

I watched this YouTube video a ways back where this guy had a (roughly) 90 gallon with high nitrates. He then added a 125 fuge and a huge separate tub as a remote DSB plumbed from another room. Nothing would budge his nitrates.

He ended up putting Oolite sand in the tank and said because nothing would penetrate the sand that any detritus would just stir on top for him to syphon out.

I didn't go Oolite, but went with the Pink Fiji (not as fine). But I know my Wrasses will appreciate it.

Don't you get algae growing on the bottom of the tank with bare bottom?

 

[DanConnor]

Do you have any experience with Halloween Urchins? Another user said 1 of those is equivalent to 5 Tuxedo's. Don't know if that's true or not..

I have one of each in my 200. I don't know about the 5x thing, but the halloween is certainly more active and poops more.

 

[mitch91175]

I would LOVE to have a bare bottom. Unfortunately I can't because I have Wrasses.

I watched this YouTube video a ways back where this guy had a (roughly) 90 gallon with high nitrates. He then added a 125 fuge and a huge separate tub as a remote DSB plumbed from another room. Nothing would budge his nitrates.

He ended up putting Oolite sand in the tank and said because nothing would penetrate the sand that any detritus would just stir on top for him to syphon out.

I didn't go Oolite, but went with the Pink Fiji (not as fine). But I know my Wrasses will appreciate it.

Don't you get algae growing on the bottom of the tank with bare bottom?

I have not experienced any issue with algae growing on the bottom. You can also do Wrasse with a bare bottom too.

 

[Forsaken77]

very much over rated. most dont make it through shipping and acclimation then rest half will die off sooner or later. if someone want a crew they should have little bit of algae at all times in their tanks and keep 1/4th or even less of any suggested pack for your tank size.
in my tanks i keep nitrates at 2-5 ppm and phos 0-0.03 so there is always a little algae here and there in my tanks whic is kept mowed down by tangs and rest by 5 turbo snails and maybe 10 of few other species. so a total of 15 snails in 300 gal.

Completely agree. I think those packs are completely unnecessary and treat the animals as disposable. Anything I would buy, I would get locally and just a few. Was just looking for some help on a large tank.

Just as an aside... I ordered some pods or chaeto from one of those places in Florida. They sent me 5 tiny type snails as a bonus in wet paper towel. Real small, Nerite maybe? Being my fish would eat them, I threw them in my sump to clean up and so they would have food. The sump has an unusual amount of chambers and stuff in there. Those suckers worked their way through every chamber, around corners, and jammed up my return pump, lol. All in 1 day! He sent me 5. I had to rip apart the sump to find 3, 1 stuck in the return pump, and the last was stuck in the Loc-line flare nozzle because it couldn't fit out. I didn't think they could even reach the return because of things blocking it. Lesson learned as far as snails in the sump, lol. When there's a will, there's a way.

 

[ca1ore]

Nothing will do a satisfactory job on the front glass, IMO. If cleaning that by hand is an issue, then changing your lights so the glass isn't lit.

An under appreciated point IME. My current tank is 36" front to back, but I light it as if it were only 24", with blanking panels on the front 12". Some dust algae at the bottom of the front panel, but that's mostly it. It's helpful, I suppose, that my preferred aesthetic is for a wide band of sand in the front - sand doesn't need light!

 

[ca1ore]

I suppose the need for a clean-up-crew depends upon how one defines it. If it's snails and crabs bought for that very purpose then, yes, overrated. If it's a diverse ecosystem of fauna that keep things balanced, then NOT overrated. I do occasionally purchase hermit crabs (even though my dusky wrasse gradually picks them off) because I find them helpful in algae and detritus control; but the vast majority are the bristleworms, brittle and micro stars, none of which were directly purchased. I have also selected certain fish for their propensity to eat things I'd prefer were absent in my tank.

 

[Forsaken77]

I suppose the need for a clean-up-crew depends upon how one defines it. If it's snails and crabs bought for that very purpose then, yes, overrated. If it's a diverse ecosystem of fauna that keep things balanced, then NOT overrated. I do occasionally purchase hermit crabs (even though my dusky wrasse gradually picks them off) because I find them helpful in algae and detritus control; but the vast majority are the bristleworms, brittle and micro stars, none of which were directly purchased. I have also selected certain fish for their propensity to eat things I'd prefer were absent in my tank.

What are some good detritus controlling animals on the more hardy side (can tolerate fluctuations like fish)?

I've had green emerald crabs in the past but I witnessed it snatch a fish. They also would attack smaller, sleeping fish. I was thinking diamond goby's but they don't get down into the sand.