Is Ecotech ever going to make a controller?

[robbyg]

Honestly controllers are overrated. I own an apex with everything I need and with the alk, Ca, Mg, No3(?) And PO monitors there isnt much more that we need.
We dont need them to be fast, as they send emails, txt, shut down pumps, heaters, lights. I like tech but dont think there is much more to be done from now on.
As far as Ecotech, I speak as a user of their products and a user of a controller company that has been in the hobby the longest: reliability takes time, testing and experience in this type of market.

Ecotech has been having a tough time with its G5s just look at forums and notice lots of unhappy people. G4s were the bomb, I have 4 units myself.

Some here think you gather a bunch of engineers and spare parts and boom, we have a reliable controller. It doesnt work like that.

What happened to the Tunze controller? Does Tunze have engineers and resources?

The controllers debate is fun and I would welcome a new controller from Ecotech, but would love to read comments that are realistic and not so much based on brand loyalty.
No pun intended at anyone. Peace!

Nobody said it was easy, especially from the software side of things. It will take a year or two of beta testing the final product to work out the bugs.

As for the idea that nothing is missing, by now I think controllers should have all had Phosphate, Nitrate, Ammonia and Co2 as items that could be tested and acted on.

As for realistic items, what we also need is more reliability and the ability of the controller to deal with faults in a more effective manor other than just putting a power bar into a default state. I know some people are tired of hearing me mention Aquatronica, but they are an example of the evolution of controllers being stalled. The Power bars that they sell, have their own CPU and memory. Even if disconnected from the controller they can still keep doing things like turning on and off plugs at scheduled times. The missing advancement is that the same power bars also have connections for multiple probes and sensors. Aquatronica failed in going the added step of having the power bar be able to act on programs for level sensors and temperature probes even if the head unit is disconnected. This is just one example of simple yet crititical things that could have improved reliability. This is not a difficult leap since most Lighting systems tied to a controller still operate normally even if the controller goes off line.

Another area that we are just getting to is basic AI. The Apex has at least started to do this with automatically adjusting dosing based on readings from the Trident. There are numerous other areas that a more advanced controller could use basic AI to figure out ways to adjust certain other parameters based on probe readings. All of this would take time for people to feel comfortable with, but we would have reached there if the technology had moved at a faster clip like other electronic products have done over the last ten years.

 

[Letterkenny]

Nobody said it was easy, especially from the software side of things. It will take a year or two of beta testing the final product to work out the bugs.

As for the idea that nothing is missing, by now I think controllers should have all had Phosphate, Nitrate, Ammonia and Co2 as items that could be tested and acted on.

As for realistic items, what we also need is more reliability and the ability of the controller to deal with faults in a more effective manor other than just putting a power bar into a default state. I know some people are tired of hearing me mention Aquatronica, but they are an example of the evolution of controllers being stalled. The Power bars that they sell, have their own CPU and memory. Even if disconnected from the controller they can still keep doing things like turning on and off plugs at scheduled times. The missing advancement is that the same power bars also have connections for multiple probes and sensors. Aquatronica failed in going the added step of having the power bar be able to act on programs for level sensors and temperature probes even if the head unit is disconnected. This is just one example of simple yet crititical things that could have improved reliability. This is not a difficult leap since most Lighting systems tied to a controller still operate normally even if the controller goes off line.

Another area that we are just getting to is basic AI. The Apex has at least started to do this with automatically adjusting dosing based on readings from the Trident. There are numerous other areas that a more advanced controller could use basic AI to figure out ways to adjust certain other parameters based on probe readings. All of this would take time for people to feel comfortable but we would have reached there if the technology had moved at a faster clip like other electronic products have done over the last ten years.

Regarding automatic dosing, it’s still not as precise as I’d like it to be. Mine seems to stick very much to the baseline I said in the beginning. There very well could be learning here from an AI perspective.

 

[Bosreef]

Might sound dumb... but for reliability why not build in a 5g data connection for when wifi is unreliable. Could also charge a data fee lose for customer but win for the company

 

[Sisterlimonpot]

Might sound dumb... but for reliability why not build in a 5g data connection for when wifi is unreliable. Could also charge a data fee lose for customer but win for the company

A monthly charge would never fly. Mindstream had the monthly subscription and was a turnoff for do many.

Plus this is a controller, we as hobbyist have options, if I had to shell out money every month or pay a big upfront cost, 100 times out of 100 I'm opting out of a monthly fee.

 

[Bosreef]

A monthly charge would never fly. Mindstream had the monthly subscription and was a turnoff for do many.

Plus this is a controller, we as hobbyist have options, if I had to shell out money every month or pay a big upfront cost, 100 times out of 100 I'm opting out of a monthly fee.

Thanks for the reply.
Doesn't the trident pretty much lock in a subscription service..... opinional to run a trident but it seems that many do.
They could also.make the 5g an option... im sure alot of reefers would get this no problem. Lots of people in this hobby with deep pockets, and not only that but the peace of mind of a 15 dollar fee to protect 1000's worth of coral.

I just wonder if it is able to be done the technical aspect that is.

 

[Sisterlimonpot]

[5G] I just wonder if it is able to be done the technical aspect that is.

Without a doubt it can be done.

I don't see connectivity being a problem. As it stands now with the current hardware running mobius, each component has their daily marching orders programmed internally. They don't need a signal from a centralized source to initiate daily task.

Mobius is just acting as a liaison between the user and the hardware during programming and scene selection. Those are the only critical times that we need be worried about BLE or wifi connectivity.

There's already hardware to hardware communication called mesh networking, and as of right now it's only utilized during programming and scene selection. If/when, in the future they do have devices that require a component to talk to one another, I imagine it will be through mesh networking. So 5G isn't a necessity. In fact when they unlock wifi, that will again only be for initial programming and scene selection (and possibly to recieve information from inputs (probes, switches, etc) when we're more than 10 feet away from the tank.

Btw, keep in mind that G5 radions have the capability to work on wifi, but ecotech still has it disabled. I imagine other hardware tailored more for controller applications will come out with wifi capability as well.

I also imagine that eventually when they implement inputs and have more complex algorithms for outputs that require unit to unit communication, that's all going to be done over mesh networking, and that should [if not already] be their main focus. **Perfecting mesh network communication**.

But understand the easy part is having daily schedule programmed into each individual component and it doesn't rely on mobius app connectivity to complete those daily task.

In the future when there's a power brick that relies on a set of probes and other inputs to perform certain duties, i imagine everything will be communicating wirelessly through mesh and not need constant communication through wifi or 5G.

 

[robbyg]

Independent devices can only get you so far
Any real controller is going to need XYZ type programming. I just don’t see that as being possible without a central unit.

 

[Sisterlimonpot]

Thanks for the reply.
Doesn't the trident pretty much lock in a subscription service..... opinional to run a trident but it seems that many do.

That's the "catch 22" isn't it? Automated testers are going to incur monthly cost to replenishing reagent.

I know this is a bit off subject.

I thought the Ion Director was going to be different as to where it would only require probe calibration on a reasonable interval say every 6 months. Last I read, that unit will require calibration before every test with their proprietary calibration concoction, just like trident with their reagent, it seems there's no getting away from that.

Then the goal becomes keeping that monthly reagent/calibration cost down. Which was the main reason for me to purchase the alkatronic, there are many threads that offer alternative to their reagent that costs pennies a month vurses any alternative. But I'm sure when the new mastertronic hits the shelves we will see a proprietary calibration concoction as well.

Personally, when the dust settles I'm sure I will base my decision not so much on upfront cost, as much as recurring monthly cost. If you're in this hobby for the long haul it only makes sense not to pay the cost of a new unit in reagent costs every 18-24 months, in my mind that's not sustainable.

 

[joshwaggs]

From the reefbuilders article, it sounds like the Mobius is only going to control pumps and lights. It doesnt look like they are doing probes or sensors. Are there any new articles or information about Mobius?

 

[TheHarold]

From the reefbuilders article, it sounds like the Mobius is only going to control pumps and lights. It doesnt look like they are doing probes or sensors. Are there any new articles or information about Mobius?

No- this thread is just contemplating that they are almost certainly working on one.

 

[User1]

Thanks for the reply.
Doesn't the trident pretty much lock in a subscription service..... opinional to run a trident but it seems that many do.

Yes, and no. Neptune does not offer a subscription for reagents. They sell reagents. This is no different than Nyos, Red Sea, Hanna, or any other test kit manufacture. If you want to test you buy the kit and refills when necessary. This will be similar to GHL and their reference fluid and probe replacement. I think the alktronic or whatever it is called has a DIY solution.

Anyway without splitting hairs no, Trident is not really a true subscription offering like you see with your cable company or similar. If we paid a fee for Fusion use that would be a subscription and people would leave in a heartbeat. Most of us time our reagent order based on what we have vs tests left. I've never run out of reagents even during the current C19 mess.

 

[BZOFIQ]

Yes, and no. Neptune does not offer a subscription for reagents. They sell reagents. This is no different than Nyos, Red Sea, Hanna, or any other test kit manufacture. If you want to test you buy the kit and refills when necessary. This will be similar to GHL and their reference fluid and probe replacement. I think the alktronic or whatever it is called has a DIY solution.

Anyway without splitting hairs no, Trident is not really a true subscription offering like you see with your cable company or similar. If we paid a fee for Fusion use that would be a subscription and people would leave in a heartbeat. Most of us time our reagent order based on what we have vs tests left. I've never run out of reagents even during the current C19 mess.

If the end-user was in charge of how many tests can be performed and when (like with Hanna, Red Sea, any other manufacturer) then it would not be subscription. I can test once a month and have the test kit be enough for 2 years+ or I can do 12 tests per day and run out in a month - my chice.


Because Triden forces you to test at least 4 times a day a reagent bottle will last exactly that many days.

Call it what you want, subscription it is and I don't subscribe.

 

[User1]

If the end-user was in charge of how many tests can be performed and when (like with Hanna, Red Sea, any other manufacturer) then it would not be subscription. I can test once a month and have the test kit be enough for 2 years+ or I can do 12 tests per day and run out in a month - my chice.


Because Triden forces you to test at least 4 times a day a reagent bottle will last exactly that many days.

Call it what you want, subscription it is and I don't subscribe.

You do not need a trident. You have a choice. If you choose to own a trident then you are buying reagents. Just as if you are testing multiple times a day using any of the manual kits (and people do test more than others). Regardless of automated testing tool be it Trident, Seneye, or Reefbot.

Agree or disagree it isn't a subscription by the very definition. Again, not to split hairs but feel free to look: the action of making or agreeing to make an advance payment in order to receive or participate in something. There is no agreement between Neptune or any other third party and me for reagents.

 

[BZOFIQ]

You do not need a trident. You have a choice. If you choose to own a trident then you are buying reagents. Just as if you are testing multiple times a day using any of the manual kits (and people do test more than others). Regardless of automated testing tool be it Trident, Seneye, or Reefbot.

Agree or disagree it isn't a subscription by the very definition. Again, not to split hairs but feel free to look: the action of making or agreeing to make an advance payment in order to receive or participate in something. There is no agreement between Neptune or any other third party and me for reagents.

Agreed. We'll call it subscription-like product for the sake of discussion.

 

[LiamPM]

You do not need a trident. You have a choice. If you choose to own a trident then you are buying reagents. Just as if you are testing multiple times a day using any of the manual kits (and people do test more than others). Regardless of automated testing tool be it Trident, Seneye, or Reefbot.

Agree or disagree it isn't a subscription by the very definition. Again, not to split hairs but feel free to look: the action of making or agreeing to make an advance payment in order to receive or participate in something. There is no agreement between Neptune or any other third party and me for reagents.

If you dont "manually" renew your subscription each month (or 6 months depending what subscription package you bought each time) you simply have a paperweight.

To me its a subscription base just avoiding the term "subscription" because they know it puts people off. No different than any of the other devices though.

Id love Ecotech to come out with a full controller - At least their software developers would bother to make their phone application full screen width.....They'd already be one step ahead for me right away.

In all seriousness, i cant see Ecotech coming out with a full controller unit, but id like to be wrong in this case.

 

[TheHarold]

If you dont "manually" renew your subscription each month (or 6 months depending what subscription package you bought each time) you simply have a paperweight.

To me its a subscription base just avoiding the term "subscription" because they know it puts people off. No different than any of the other devices though.

Id love Ecotech to come out with a full controller - At least their software developers would bother to make their phone application full screen width.....They'd already be one step ahead for me right away.

In all seriousness, i cant see Ecotech coming out with a full controller unit, but id like to be wrong in this case.

I think it’s just an argument of semantics. By that logic, your car also needs a subscription to refuel or else it is a paperweight.

Or your aquarium requires a subscription in salt. Your RODI requires a subscription in resin. Just a silly argument, IMO.

It’s an automated tester based on titration. Of course reagents are used and you have to purchase more.

 

[mitch91175]

A monthly charge would never fly. Mindstream had the monthly subscription and was a turnoff for do many.

Plus this is a controller, we as hobbyist have options, if I had to shell out money every month or pay a big upfront cost, 100 times out of 100 I'm opting out of a monthly fee.

Why do we need to keep waiting for companies to make this stuff for us and we can actually do some DIY stuff ourselves (and maybe together even make something better?)

Let the companies fight against each other and not work together. Working with products like items from this company could have potential https://neulog.com/.

Neolog has some pretty interesting sensors:

Temperature Logger Sensor NUL-203 | NeuLog Sensors

neulog.com

Oxygen logger sensor NUL-205 | NeuLog Sensors

neulog.com

pH Logger Sensor NUL-206 | NeuLog Sensors

neulog.com

Conductivity logger sensor NUL-215 | NeuLog Sensors

neulog.com

Colorimeter logger sensor NUL-219 | NeuLog Sensors

neulog.com

Drop Counter logger sensor NUL-223 | NeuLog Sensors

neulog.com

Flow logger sensor NUL-224 | NeuLog Sensors

neulog.com

Salinity logger sensor NUL-228 | NeuLog Sensors

neulog.com

Calcium logger sensor NUL-238 | NeuLog Sensors

neulog.com

Nitrate logger sensor NUL-241 | NeuLog Sensors

neulog.com

Crazy how many sensors they have that we can use. Also seem easily to connect to mac/PC. Yeah not ideal, but could easily be a start.

 

[User1]

I think it’s just an argument of semantics. By that logic, your car also needs a subscription to refuel or else it is a paperweight.

Or your aquarium requires a subscription in salt. Your RODI requires a subscription in resin. Just a silly argument, IMO.

It’s an automated tester based on titration. Of course reagents are used and you have to purchase more.

Yup - well said.

 

[BZOFIQ]

I think it’s just an argument of semantics. By that logic, your car also needs a subscription to refuel or else it is a paperweight.

Or your aquarium requires a subscription in salt. Your RODI requires a subscription in resin. Just a silly argument, IMO.

It’s an automated tester based on titration. Of course reagents are used and you have to purchase more.

Bad example.

Harold, you don drive you don't pay. With Trident, you cannot make that choice. 4 tests a day or else.

 

[BZOFIQ]

How many people would buy an inkjet printer that would print (without your control) 4 color pages per day, just to stay ....working?

It would be out of ink before you'd need to actually print something; nevermind the paper.