Is fish keeping ethical?

BRS
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Tiger-Paws said:
Gentleman while I agree that no country has the right to impose their values, their laws or values on another country, has happened and is happening today through trade restrictions and direct military action.
I submit that all of this (and other) discussions on Ethics is little more than that a discussion. A practice is either legal (where it happens) or is illegal. As an example I have personally killed in cold blood more people than I care to remember (yes some of my actions haunt me), but because those actions were sanctioned by the U.S. government I will never be changed with a crime.

Ethics is a meaningless word thrown around in an attempt to shame others and justify our actions.
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There is a code of ethics for military personnel. When in an environment under martial law, such as but not restricted to an operational combat zone. All personnel are held personally and directly responsible under such laws. Even when in a foreign land that jurisdiction still holds true and enforceable. Even under contact, military personnel have the right to refuse an illegal order from their superior officer.

There is still to this day, a number of criminal cases under investigation and others that have been found guilty and past sentence. Involving Military Personnel who showed a conscious disregard for those laws. There are also laws in any democratic society that make any action of war by the state , subject of legal consideration, within the framework of that countries laws and international law.

With regards comparing ethics with ones own conscious feelings is never going to be practical. Ethics is a joint statement of morality not a personal one. As individuals we will all have our own standards for what we believe is right or wrong. This can also be wildly contaminated by environmental stresses.

As I replied to your previous comment, I would suggest if you have not already taken medical advice for any stress issues from your service time. That you seek help from one of the many organisations including any of your past service comrades. I suffer PTSD myself and found that openly speaking of my problems and seeking help improved my state of mind and general health immensely.

As I stated in reply to your previous post. You never should stand alone. Esprit de Corps.
 
www.dinkinsaquaticgardens.com
Today it is not, I have been struggling with a moral dilemma for a while now. I have seen the buckets and buckets of dead fish at the lfs's and the distributors. The human collection is insatiable, supercharged greed to no ends. The disease is unsustainable, the luck and effort it takes to maintain a healthy tank has become a ridiculous proposition. Species of fish brought in that just should not even be collected, do you ever wonder where all the huge tanks are for fish such as tangs, angels, and triggers. Fish like dwarf lions, anglers, scorps that never eat from collection and die at unbelievable rates. What's the point of an undulated trigger in a home aquarium. LFS and online retailers selling and advising the most ridiculous advice, triggers, volitan lions, and a trio of yellow tangs for a 40 breeder; I've heard it first hand. I rationalize my behavior by saying "I'm saving them, if it weren't for me they'd be dead":, bs I know it. But it actually is true. I know some believe you change things at the end source, as a consumer by not buying. I believe you need to change things from the source, because believe me they don't care what happens at the end. They will continue to collect, until there is nothing left to collect, and they don't care how many die.
 
I'm sure many have covered the common arguments for "pro fish keeping", but one item that most don't seem to address is the value that keeping animals in captives provides by making people value nature. (IMO, any of these arguments really falls apart if the person making them isn't a vegan themselves and works hard to not negatively impact climate)

There are obviously issues for example with zoos and you can make arguments that animals should be left alone. However, take your average kid going to the zoo. If seeing that animal helps them appreciate nature and VALUE animals, then that might just offset any negative impact of keeping an animal in jail it's entire life. Personally, I think there is a nice middle ground where animals in captivity are cared for properly, while allowing us to enjoy them.
 
You can not debate people on ethics or morals concerning keeping aquarium life if they believe animals are possessions, no different than their tv or a piece of art on their wall.

"The greatness of a nation and its moral progress can be judged by the way its animals are treated."
― Mahatma Gandhi

Does anyone else believe that society is going down the toilet bowl. I'll stick to the atrocities I've witnessed in the aquarium trade, but it's across the board at zoos, shelters, and every aspect of every pet industry. Humans and greed. Zoos breed and keep the babies because they are a crowd favorite, and get rid of the older harder to care for individuals, have you ever heard of a canned hunt; I have and i have saved discarded zoo animals from that fate. Some of your larger popular charities to prevent the cruelty of animals are nothing more than a 2nd hand pet store masquerading as a charity. I would get an emergency call to groom rescues from the same disgusting puppy mills week after week, with no attempt to control or shut down their disgusting operations. I'm having a hard time seeing this changing any time soon.

 
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lion king said:
You can not debate people on ethics or morals concerning keeping aquarium life if they believe animals are possessions, no different than their tv or a piece of art on their wall.

"The greatness of a nation and its moral progress can be judged by the way its animals are treated."
― Mahatma Gandhi

Does anyone else believe that society is going down the toilet bowl. I'll stick to the atrocities I've witnessed in the aquarium trade, but it's across the board at zoos, shelters, and every aspect of every pet industry. Humans and greed. Zoos breed and keep the babies because they are a crowd favorite, and get rid of the older harder to care for individuals, have you ever heard of a canned hunt; I have and i have saved discarded zoo animals from that fate. Some of your larger popular charities to prevent the cruelty of animals are nothing more than a 2nd hand pet store masquerading as a charity. I would get an emergency call to groom rescues from the same disgusting puppy mills week after week, with no attempt to control or shut down their disgusting operations. I'm having a hard time seeing this changing any time soon.
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The world is far less violent and cruel than it has ever been.
 
OriginalUserName said:
The world is far less violent and cruel than it has ever been.
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The world maybe, but the country I live in is going backwards, I live in the USA. Most people don't even ask themselves, where do they all go. A women that has sex on video for the world to see is given the key to US city and you want to question the direction of the morals and ethics of this country.
 
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www.dinkinsaquaticgardens.com
lion king said:
The world maybe, but the country I live in is going backwards, I live in the USA. Most people don't even ask themselves, where do they all go. A women that has sex on video for the world to see is given the key to US city and you want to question the direction of the morals and ethics of this country.
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Some minor setbacks. It's easy to get depressed about things but our general path is still up.
 
lion king said:
The world maybe, but the country I live in is going backwards, I live in the USA. Most people don't even ask themselves, where do they all go. A women that has sex on video for the world to see is given the key to US city and you want to question the direction of the morals and ethics of this country.
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And a man who ran a massive dog fighting operation in his backyard that led many dogs to their death, (including hanging his familys dog)... got nothing but a slap on the wrist, and a key to the city. Moral of the story? Be good at sports, nothing else really matters. Football is more important than the lives of all those dogs, and the dogs we’ll lose in the future when people inevitably follow his lead. If that’s not backwards, I dunno what is....
 
vanpire said:
Which is more ethical, eating fish or keeping them in our aquariums? Hmmm.
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Great question. Since we are imposing our will on their lives, if we want to be ethical we need to know what their choice would be. We won't know the answer until we and the fish share a common language.
 
Top Shelf Aquatics
curiouser said:
Great question. Since we are imposing our will on their lives, if we want to be ethical we need to know what their choice would be. We won't know the answer until we and the fish share a common language.
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My fish would much prefer to be in my tank than be eaten. I'm certain of this. Even humans mostly choose prison over certain death.
 
Is fish keeping ethical....is keeping a cheetah as a pet in a loft in downtown Manhattan ethical? Probably not. But being all things silly it is up to the aquarist to be responsible and treat fish like a normal pet - not like commodities or disposable things. I know it sounds like I'm judging but this hobby can be self sustaining by passing corals to one another with propagation. And buying captive bred first. The rest is just being responsible by understanding what makes sense to put in the tank size we choose to maintain.

Everyone makes mistakes. Learning from them is the important part often missing or not heeding others advise.
 
Taking any animal from its natural habitat is unethical in my opinion. But a question of to what degree. Farming animals for the sole purpose of slaughtering them for a nice meal, bear bile farming, cutting fins off sharks for soup and leaving them to starve out on the ocean floor, apparently you can even machine gun an elephant in Thailand for the right price + tens of other f'd up things humans do for pleasure would be high on the list.

Passionate reefers who genuinely care about their fish would certainly rate very low on the unethical activity list. Most of us see dead and sick fish in our LFS (not the 50% stock losses that die in transport) and read countless threads about 'tank wipe outs' due to power failures, kalk overdoses, equipment failure and the like. As a hobby overall, from collection to our homes, including all the newbies, all the tank wipe outs, all the QT deaths and all the mistakes, it would be hard to argue we are doing a good thing here.
 
curiouser said:
OriginalUserName,
Do fish think like humans?
With all due respect to you and to the fish......do fish think?
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They don't, which is my point. If an intelligent, sentient animal like a human can prefer imprisonment to death, then surely a stupid animal like a fish would as well. We aren't talking about smart animals here, fish are dumb as rocks.
 
Tidal Gardens
How do we know fish don't think?
They know where to get food, they remember their territory boundaries, they remember the pecking order, they bicker and fight with each other, they don't cope with change very well, some are brave, some are timid, some love to watch your every move, they appear to have personalities, some like my purple tang are just jerks... Dont get me wrong I don't think they ponder the meaning of life, just not sure we can definitively say everything they do is just instinct. One thing I'm certain about is they do get scared and do suffer
 
In today's society do we even treat each other ethically? Look at the way we treat one another, I personally care for my dogs and fish more than I do most people.
 
Chewy.com
EmptyWallet said:
How do we know fish don't think?
They know where to get food, they remember their territory boundaries, they remember the pecking order, they bicker and fight with each other, they don't cope with change very well, some are brave, some are timid, some love to watch your every move, they appear to have personalities, some like my purple tang are just jerks... Dont get me wrong I don't think they ponder the meaning of life, just not sure we can definitively say everything they do is just instinct. One thing I'm certain about is they do get scared and do suffer
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There are some pretty decent arguments that suggest that even we don't really think. Fish don't seem to exhibit any thinking ability. Now, if we want to talk about octopi or maybe mantis shrimp we start to see some intelligence.
tank o tang said:
In today's society do we even treat each other ethically? Look at the way we treat one another, I personally care for my dogs and fish more than I do most people.
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Today's society is more ethical and humane by any measure than at any time in history. I know we focus on gloom and doom but most people are decent when confronted with something bad.
 
BRS

IF YOU HAD TO TAKE A REEFING EXAM, WOULD YOU PASS?

  • Yes!

    Votes: 32 45.7%

  • Not yet, but I have one that I want to buy in mind!

    Votes: 9 12.9%

  • No.

    Votes: 26 37.1%

  • Other (please explain).

    Votes: 3 4.3%
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