Is growing algae for nutrient export a bad idea?

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In another thread...an idea was floated that nutrient levels were not as important as what establishes its footing first....coral or algae. I think this is actually a pretty good thought.

Are we making a mistake using macro-algae for nutrient export? Are we actually predisposing out systems to algae in the process?

I think its an idea with some merit...what do you think?

FWIW, I do not see how growing one type of macroalgae in a refugium could predispose the aquarium to other species of algae in the display tank. IMO, it makes the growth of them less likely by competing for the same resources.

What could it be doing that is helpful to the other species?
 
FWIW, I do not see how growing one type of macroalgae in a refugium could predispose the aquarium to other species of algae in the display tank. IMO, it makes the growth of them less likely by competing for the same resources.

What could it be doing that is helpful to the other species?

Your neglecting other potential limiting factors.

How about something as simple as space and light in the refugium.

Macro-algae in sump reduces coral uptake of nutrients through allelopathic mechanisms resulting in an nutrient surplus. Normally the macro-algae would benefit, but due to limitations of space and light in the refugium it cannot, thereby fueling nuisence alge in the tank which has no such restriction...

See images above...

Or how about "a rising tide raises all ships" for algae generally.
 
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I agree that it is theoretically possible that something growing in a refugium (or elsewhere, such as in the main tank, and this need not be algae but could be other corals, sponges, etc.) could release chemicals that would slow coral growth so much that it actually resulted in a rise in nutrients in the main tank, more than offsetting the nutrients taken up by the algae. I've not seen good evidence of this reported, but it is at least a theoretical possibility.

In practice, however, this generally does not seem to be the case in reef tanks where I've seen people comment on their results.

Folks who start with elevated nutrients or even an existing pest algae problem and add macroalgae or and ATS often see the nutrients and/or pest algae decline. OTOH, I've really not seen many folks claim they see an unexpected increase in either nutrients or pest algae when initiating macroalgae or an ATS. Have you seen many examples of that effect?
 
If the concern is that you think the macroalgae are taking up too many nutrients and not leaving enough for the corals, you can always use less macroalgae until you reach an appropriate amount.

I do not believe that there is much cause to be concerned that you are taking so many nutrients out with macroalgae that you stunt hard coral growth and yet allow pest algae to thrive in the main tank. With a few exceptions (like valonia or bryopsis), most pest algae need higher nutrient levels than do hard corals to grow, especially in a tank where you likely have some predation on the algae (such as fish, snails, crabs, etc.).
 
I agree that it is theoretically possible that something growing in a refugium (or elsewhere, such as in the main tank, and this need not be algae but could be other corals, sponges, etc.) could release chemicals that would slow coral growth so much that it actually resulted in a rise in nutrients in the main tank, more than offsetting the nutrients taken up by the algae. I've not seen good evidence of this reported, but it is at least a theoretical possibility.

In practice, however, this generally does not seem to be the case in reef tanks where I've seen people comment on their results.

Folks who start with elevated nutrients or even an existing pest algae problem and add macroalgae or and ATS often see the nutrients and/or pest algae decline. OTOH, I've really not seen many folks claim they see an unexpected increase in either nutrients or pest algae when initiating macroalgae or an ATS. Have you seen many examples of that effect?

No - I've not seen many, in fact I personally have only seen one where I can only say that I strongly suspect this occured - I cannot prove it - and it was an extreme example - where a disproportionately large volume of chaeto was grown, restricted, in a coral propogation system. In this case remote corals arrested, and died - while pest algaes flourished - in what otherwise appeared to be a nutrient controlled system.

I have since learned that the similar effects have been observed in the wild, have been studied, and to an extent characterized and quantified.

It really should not be surprising as allelopathy is well known to exist among corals - just not all of us might have expected macroalgaes participate.
 
Thankyou for giving me the term allelopathy. I've tried to research coral chemical war repeatedly and couldn't find a lot on it. Allelopathy is much more info rich. And apparently is a part of any "plant". Including dry or wet, bacteria, macro or nuisance algaes, coral etc.. I have seen studies on soft vs hard corals which apparently softies almost always win. I havnt found any on macros yet. But I now have a subject to investicate for the coming months. Man I love this hobby. My tank is crazy mixed with soft, hard, and macro algaes. Everything lives but may have stunted growth. Cant be sure. Thanks again for the subject :-)
 
Charles, thanks for the excellent link...we're not in disagreement on the utility of ATS systems or macroalgae to reduce nitrogen and phosphate in our systems. As your article points out however, on the reef - algae and coral are confined to their own zones. Corals don't do well where algae grows but algae will do just fine where corals grow in the absence of sufficient grazers.

The can be many reasons to explain this - but one - allelopathy - could mean that algaes shape their environment in such a way so as to be detrimental to corals - even at a distance. We accept this form of warfare exists between corals - but have neglected the possibilty of such between algae and corals. It does exist - and has been experimentally measured in situ on a reef using several strains of algae and favia.

If such an impact can be measured - at a distance without contact - in open water - could the impact be more pronounced in a closed system? We run activated carbon - in part - for these very reasons.

There are other nutrient sinks available - I use anerobic bacteria in an isolated chamber for these purposes. This too is a natural system, perhaps with downsides as well. Even in your refrence tank - although you don't mention it - your sandbed and rock-work were doing nutrient removal.

The closed nature of your system is enlightening - but my primary focus is a little different than yours - I want to optimally grow corals - while yours might be more to the creation of a "model" of costal reef conditions, which does not necessarily mean coral health is optimized. Some seamounts have tremendous coral populations remote from costal turf algaes.
 
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What a great read! I love your site. Your methods of reefing and interest in the smallest of creatures is exactly why I love reefinh.
"What is a reef aquarium? Note that I did not ask what is a coral reef aquarium. I purposely left out the word coral simply because a reef is so much more than just a few coral species growing on top of some rocks. With the vast diversity of life found on a reef, we should strive to obtain and maintain as much of that diversity as possible in order to be able to use the word "reef" when describing our aquariums. In order to do so, we must provide not only the habitat for the corals to thrive in, we must also provide the various other habitats that, in turn, make a fringing coral reef possible. It is my hope that through this series of articles you and I will both get a sense of the much bigger picture that the word "reef" should invoke."
I have been traveling along these lines. Have the seperate dsb fuge, and only run skimmer. But im embarrassed to say i eliminated the turf in my overflow by cutting off the light with a black cloth. I love the idea of using the baffle as an ats. And as scary as it sounds the idea of ditching the skimmer makes sense once a good ats is in place. Ill be buying a house in the coming year and cant wait to have more room to play with these ideas. :-) also, ive known through experience that flow inhibits cyano growth best but could not explain it. Thanks for that. :-)
For years, I have run my system with nothing but an ATS and a pump with great results. I am in the process of creating another reef tank built on the below linked design with a simple compartment on the tank which avoids the need for a sump.

http://chucksaddiction.thefishestate.net/The Natural Reef Aquarium.html
 
We run activated carbon - in part - for these very reasons.

Bacterias are also capable of allelopathy. So don't you run the same risk?

Maybe running ozone (ex in a skimmer) will help to "dismantle" the allelopathic compunds by oxidation? Would this reaction be enough to render them harmless? Running carbon at skimmer output(ex in a bag), will then remove both excess ozone and oxidation toxic byproducts.
 
I built an algae scrubber to remove an outbreak of hair algae when my tank was relatively new. It worked very well. Very well. Within a few weeks algae was under control; shortly after the algae completely disappeared. Foolishly, I left the algae scrubber in use for months afterwards. It was later that I realized that I had gone overboard with nutrients export and that I was depriving the corals of valuable nutrients.

So nutrient export (such as the case of algae scrubbers) work very well....but like so many other things in life... must be used in moderation and with sensibility.
 
So, all this information is very interesting. The problem is really how useful it is. One of the problems is the differences between systems. Just as example if the system run activated carbon, allelopathy would be less likely to occur. It could be even more complicated if one take in consideration the type of activated carbon that is being used. Other variables would include how old (and stablished or mature) the systems are, what is the mass of corals (which will also consume nutrients) present in the tank, fish numbers, clean-up crew, light source and cycle, etc... Don't take me wrong, I love the biology of it, and I always learn a lot, but for each answer or experience shared, there are so many questions I want to ask so I know other factors that may play a role on the success/failure of the experience.
In my case a 8 to 9 month old system, net 400 gal (total ~ 500 gal), dosing vinegar. Two display tanks connected to the same sump, one 125 bare bottom fish only (large snow flake eel, three medium fish ~ 4 inch, and a few small fish) I feed 4 frozen cubes/day (brine, blood worms, mysis shrimp, etc) and about twice that (for the snow flake eel) every 3 days; the second tank 300 gal, about 2 inch sand, SPS dominated (over 100 different corals), most small colonies (1-3 inches), seven larger colonies (5+ inches), approximately 20 small fishes and 5 medium tangs (3 yellow tangs, and 2 purple tangs) that I feed daily with 2 frozen cubes (variable) and dry food. The 125 gal uses LED (2x Radion gen 3 about 5 hours peak at 100% with full spectrum and 14 hours total, starting and ending at 3% royal blue) and the 300 gall uses t5 (2 fixtures of 8x54w, mostly blues with one close to 12,000K and one actinic in each fixture). I run 1/3 of the recommended amount of BRS ROX carbon, passively (change every 15 days).
What is interesting is that the algae growth in both system was very different. Was it the flow? Was it the fish? Was it the light?
About 5 months ago I decided stop measuring NO3 and PO4. I was only getting 0.00 measurements when there was clearly nutrients in the water based on how fast film algae was growing in the glass (I had to clean every other day in the 300 gal and once every 4-5 days in the 125 gal). Now, the film algae growth changed, I only clean the glass once every 5 to 6 days on the 300 gal and on the 125 gal. Why the change? More coral mass (increased a lot either by addition of new coral and by growing)? T5 lights are getting weaker? Just overall more stablished/mature tank?
As I usually tell friends that keep SPS, If coral have good PE, colors are good, and they are growing (or at least most of them, ;-)), I try to not change anything. I know... It always look like there is a way to improve our systems... But for me, this hobby thought how NOT TO react, because every time I did, I caused more harm than good.
 
The variables that you mention would definitely change how the tanks reacted to everything. But I believe the principles of this information would be the same in each case. I'm sure running carbon in the systems as I'm sure most of us do Would lessen the effects of allelopathy But I don't think it would stop them all together unless it was being run in between each coral. and though I agree if it ain't broke don't fix it, that is not to say it could not be better. I think idealy it would be great to find a balance that allows us to run our systems without any manual or chemical filtration. Only then could it be considered a true ecosystem. Our goals however are a changing factor. If an ecosystem or "reef" is not your goal but only to grow coral. Then you are correct in saying a lot of this info is not useful.
 
As I said in the very beginning, I think the exchange of information is good and a lot of good ideas were shared. That is why I read through it and why I shared my experience too. I am just cautious on what is actable and what is not, and always question what else could be playing a role in each "case report".
Even so, this is an interesting thread...
 
Didn't mean anything, just a response. You are a pretty lucky guy. 300 and a 125. Jealous
 
There is no doubt that ATS systems and macro systems work. I've seen excellent examples of each used in tanks I would be proud to own.

Just a quick point...in almost every other area - we as humans can usually out perform nature. By this I mean we can raise crops in our fields with higher yeilds that would occur naturally - we can raise fish, chickens, beef, pigs with higher density, larger specimines and in shorter time than would be expected in nature.

In nature, corals grow in a highly competitive, complicated, nutrient limited matrix, yet I don't think we come close to reaching the productivity levels seen on the reef. If we really undestood what the matrix is and what the key components are, I would expect to easily beat natural growth rates in our specimines. That we struggle just to keep them alive suggests just how little we know.

So we look for information...we observe...we try things based on that information and gather new information. For me, its a key part of what makes this hobby enjoyable.

Many of us are prejudiced in our approaches, because its a complicated subject, so we follow what has already been done assuming it must be the better way - or more dogmatically - the only way.

There is little we know know in this hobby with such certainty. Frankly, we have only an tenuous grip on the elemental nature of seawater and its importance (at best).

When we discuss nutrients - its only N and P in their most basic forms - we completely punt when it comes to C - and C is, in my opinion so much more important.

Is what we've been discussing applicable to improving our systems? I think so. We're talking about C and theres not too much out there on it.

For example - why shouldn't we use coral for nutrient control and export?
Why do we need to start with live rock?

With my present system, after years of following the trends, I've tried to do it different - from the start.
I'm going a low C, low bacteria route - I didn't cycle in the traditional sense - I started with a moderate stock of nems, clam, snails and fish and the occasional frag over a limited supply of dead rock and have done as little as possible to keep it from crashing.

I run a high power UV and mechanical filteration...thats it...an initial rise in ammonia, handled with seachem prime, and a slide into high nitrate ...no coral loss...no anenome loss...no fish loss...amazingly my 10 nickel sized anenomes now number over fourty and cover 10-20% of 24 square feet of tank bottom. Best tank I've ever had at this stage.

I can't tell you any levels except salinity, temp, alk and now nitrate. I did check nitrate starting a month or so ago and found it to be near 100. Alarmed, but seeing no adverse effects, I added a small sulphur based denitrator - to slow its rise - and water changed N back into the 40 range.

I feed the fish - the fish feed the coral - I strip the water I keep all sediments out and put nothing in unless I know what it is....no mystery rock...magic elixers...growth stimulators...pods....nothing.

Clean, startingly clear water...no deutritus...no algae...no pests....moderate bio-load (some would say high)

As the tank is stable - I've improved my lighting. Change one thing at a time...watch and learn...No more assuming.
 
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