Is high tech really better, and at what cost?

[Grey Guy]

I have noticed from time to time that there are major tank disasters reported I n spite of using some of the latest high tech control systems. I think the greatest advantage of high tech is to be able to evaluate and tend to your tank, even when you are not home.

I went the high tech root on a 120 gallon system with sump, for about $9,000.00. Slowly, little by little, I have lost over half of it in about 3 years time. 2 Radions - my fault, 2 Eco Mp40 - ?, one DC pump - my fault, One 3 stage RO unit - rusted out, 1 Apex controller - my fault, 1 Apex controller - ?. I think the third one is o.k. But the entire system quit working the other night and I haven’t been able to fix it. I think it’s the head unit, which is over $300.00 to replace. I gave up on a fancy CO2 calcium reactor system a long time ago. It was a lot of fun to imagine how well that was going to work. You can call it bad luck or stupidity, but I call it non-cost effective.

I am replacing the whole thing with a cheap 2 stage temp controller and a couple timers. I tried to control the PH, which was a mistake. So, I think I’m better off not knowing what it is all the time anyway. I can replace most of my high tech for under 100 dollars. We’ll see how that goes.

When I spent all that money, I expected a well controlled system to last at least 5, if not 10 years. All gone in 3 years is just tooooo much!

 

[HippieSmell]

It sounds like a lot of it is your fault. Your words, not mine. I'm not sure I'd call an RO unit high tech, either. But, there is something to be said about K.I.S.S.

I'll personally never run a tank would a controller, however. Not worth the trade-off. Get a Profilux if you want stability.

 

[Grey Guy]

I’d like to add, If you have a 1,000 dollar control system to monitor and protect 10,000 worth of coral, it makes complete sense. But if you have a 1,000 dollar system that will either break or become obsolete, before you own 1,000 dollars worth of coral, then it doesn’t make much sense.

 

[Grey Guy]

We are encouraged to buy things that, if we are very successful in the future, then we will need them. But many of us crash and burn before such things are really practical, or needed. With my experience, I would recommend going low tech until you are being successful at that, then you can evaluate what high tech will really improve your system. Does anyone make sure there Alkalinity is stable before purchasing a calcium reactor? In hind sight, I think that would be wise. I need to learn to get what I need and not just what I want. All the whistles and bells, and doodads are so cool to have though. HaaaaHaaaHaaa.

 

[Radman73]

I've run a controller since I was about 90 days into the hobby. Started with an Apex Jr. Roughly 6 months later I got an email saying my temp was low. Called my wife who was at home, had her find the back up heater, and replace the broken one over the phone. That was just a little 29gal biocube though. Still, it felt awesome to be able to do that.

I've since upgraded to what is now an Apex 'Classic' that I've been running for 3-4 years. I bought the head used from a club member and reused everything else from the Jr. It's never given me a problem. I've used a Cal reactor, fancy LED lights, and other equipment. A cheap Chinese DC pump return pump died on me after no more than 6 months and the Eheim that replaced it has been running virtually maintenance free ever since, so 4-5 years.

All of this equipment you've lost. Where was it? Was it somewhere water could get onto it? Were the vortech's ever dropped or did they not have the dry side cord supported properly? Were they properly aligned for the wet side and dry side? Did your system even need a calcium reactor? Most young systems don't.

You've implicated yourself a couple of times. Are you careless or lazy? Not judging lol! I take unnecessary risks regularly but this hobby has driven me to be more careful than any other time in my post military life. I also have a wee bit of a lazy streak with some things. That's actually why I got the controller. Auto water changes were a wonderful thing! Can't wait to get it set up again.

I think you need to take a look at every little thing you've been doing and make sure that you've actually been doing it right. If your Apex has been or can be exposed to water, it will malfunction eventually. Even if you think it isn't getting wet, you have to be absolutely sure. That goes for MP40 dry sides too. I've seen the cable separate from the body when someone would just let the dry side hang.

I do believe in the take it slow approach, and I also concur that simply throwing money at this hobby certainly doesn't guarantee success. But if you're someone who travels or works long days, a controller can be the difference between being in the hobby or not.

 

[Grey Guy]

I've run a controller since I was about 90 days into the hobby. Started with an Apex Jr. Roughly 6 months later I got an email saying my temp was low. Called my wife who was at home, had her find the back up heater, and replace the broken one over the phone. That was just a little 29gal biocube though. Still, it felt awesome to be able to do that.

I've since upgraded to what is now an Apex 'Classic' that I've been running for 3-4 years. I bought the head used from a club member and reused everything else from the Jr. It's never given me a problem. I've used a Cal reactor, fancy LED lights, and other equipment. A cheap Chinese DC pump return pump died on me after no more than 6 months and the Eheim that replaced it has been running virtually maintenance free ever since, so 4-5 years.

All of this equipment you've lost. Where was it? Was it somewhere water could get onto it? Were the vortech's ever dropped or did they not have the dry side cord supported properly? Were they properly aligned for the wet side and dry side? Did your system even need a calcium reactor? Most young systems don't.

You've implicated yourself a couple of times. Are you careless or lazy? Not judging lol! I take unnecessary risks regularly but this hobby has driven me to be more careful than any other time in my post military life. I also have a wee bit of a lazy streak with some things. That's actually why I got the controller. Auto water changes were a wonderful thing! Can't wait to get it set up again.

I think you need to take a look at every little thing you've been doing and make sure that you've actually been doing it right. If your Apex has been or can be exposed to water, it will malfunction eventually. Even if you think it isn't getting wet, you have to be absolutely sure. That goes for MP40 dry sides too. I've seen the cable separate from the body when someone would just let the dry side hang.

I do believe in the take it slow approach, and I also concur that simply throwing money at this hobby certainly doesn't guarantee success. But if you're someone who travels or works long days, a controller can be the difference between being in the hobby or not.

Great response. Thanks. Some people just know how to take good care of things and other people have to learn or do without

 

[Radman73]

Great response. Thanks. Some people just know how to take good care of things and other people have to learn or do without

Hope it didn't come off too harsh. We've all made mistakes. I almost caught our house on fire because I didn't put in a drip loop. It's not that I didn't know what a drip loop was, I just didn't think about it when I ran some wires. I knew better than to not have a GFCI circuit though, that was all on me thinking it didn't have to be done "right now." Technology can be of great benefit in this hobby, but it doesn't replace investing at least a little time each day or week into a tank. It can reduce the amount of time spent on maintenance, or it can make maintenance easier so we're more likely to do it, but we still have to do some work. I do worry that some think they can buy an easy tank. You can't, you can just buy an easier tank.

Main point was tech isn't bad, like any tool it's up to us to use it correctly. A greater understanding of exactly what it does, and sometimes more importantly what it doesn't do, helps.

There are some things about this hobby that I just can't stand. Like water changes. So, I automated those once upon a time. Hopefully will again soon too, cause I still hate them lol! Maybe one day we can automate cleaning the skimmer cup, that'd be non-smelly awesome.

 

[Brew12]

I know you started this thread referring to controllers but this is exactly how I feel about return pumps. I do use a controller but I would never use a DC pump on my return. Not until the technology is more mature.

To me, the return pump is the one thing I need to keep my system running. A failure in anything else would take days to do much harm because of redundancies I have. If that return pump goes, I'm in trouble.

 

[Radman73]

I know you started this thread referring to controllers but this is exactly how I feel about return pumps. I do use a controller but I would never use a DC pump on my return. Not until the technology is more mature.

To me, the return pump is the one thing I need to keep my system running. A failure in anything else would take days to do much harm because of redundancies I have. If that return pump goes, I'm in trouble.

Exactly why I went with a Fluval SP6 over a Vectra, COR, or any of the others outside of Abyzz. And I'm not spending that much on a return lol!

 

[Gribbliest]

First time around, I went low tech, then higher tech, then higher tech. The real cost was significantly higher when starting low and adjusting later. I was always trying to dig myself out of a hole I created with bad decisions early on - I got there, but it took a long time.

I'm a geek though, and I do love my toys - so was it necessary? I think so, but I am biased.

This time around (build in process), I've gone high tech from day one. Yes, I've spent a small fortune on the setup, and I have no idea if what I have is right. I am however confident I won't need to upgrade anything in the near term.

I have to say, I wouldn't be without a Profilux, and have gone for one from the get go this time - invaluable resource in my opinion. Their new KH Director is the one upgrade I think I'll add as my system matures.

Horses for courses as they say - people are successful (or not) either way - it's your preference. As I said, I'm a geek and enjoy the control and piece of mind that I believe comes from Hi-Tech.

 

[Grey Guy]

I know you started this thread referring to controllers but this is exactly how I feel about return pumps. I do use a controller but I would never use a DC pump on my return. Not until the technology is more mature.

To me, the return pump is the one thing I need to keep my system running. A failure in anything else would take days to do much harm because of redundancies I have. If that return pump goes, I'm in trouble.

I ran 2 circulating pumps either both at ounce or either or, using check valves on the discharge of each pump. With a flow meter or something, a failed pump could automatically switch to another backup pump. The tech is out there for it.

 

[TheHarold]

It sounds to me like you just manage to break many high end products

 

[reefwiser]

Many times people see all the equipment threads of people building aquariums and feel they “ Need” a certain piece of equipment to make their tanks successful. Equipment companies know this and love to say so and so uses their equipment. With the implication if so and so uses a piece of so must you to be successful.

Tech can make things easy but it can also complicate a set up to the point where you rely on the tech when you should be learning the biology of the fish and corals in your care.
Try to focus on the corals and fish and get tech that helps you support their good health and don’t get sucked into the buy buy buy to fix things when simple things work too.

 

[Radman73]

Many times people see all the equipment threads of people building aquariums and feel they “ Need” a certain piece of equipment to make their tanks successful. Equipment companies know this and love to say so and so uses their equipment. With the implication if so and so uses a piece of so must you to be successful.

Tech can make things easy but it can also complicate a set up to the point where you rely on the tech when you should be learning the biology of the fish and corals in your care.
Try to focus on the corals and fish and get tech that helps you support their good health and don’t get sucked into the buy buy buy to fix things when simple things work too.

Absolutely true! And, occasionally, it works out that way. Very difficult to take someone else's equipment list and replicate it with the same success. The whole, every tank is different thing... I know I've been guilty of it lol! But, that's largely how many people determine what to buy too. What lights do people run on this or that sized tank? What skimmer, what return, what power heads, etc... So it can be beneficial. Equipment will never replace proper husbandry though. Trust me, I've tried.

 

[Alfrareef]

I understand your point and seems you’ve taken a good lesson. Hope others read it and learn.
At this hobby everyone talks about learning, but few really follow that path. By reading others experience they are lead to believe that it’s just a knobs and sensors challenge.
That’s not true as you realize.
Don’t feel bad about it because it’s common. What’s not common is somebody be so blunt about it and share the way you’ve done it. I congrat you for this and hope others learn.
When I help some newbie to start a reef tank I always struggle to persuade them to keep it simple and to study water chemistry and biology. The fact his that most of them start going to forums and LFS and spend thousand in equipment, corals and fish. The result it’s always the same. Thousands spend and hundreds death. And even worst they carry on building a pile of unused equipment and after some years they say you were right and I should have heard you.
I use to say that when you see a new reefer carrying water, hand dosing and keeps asking about Phosphates, nitrates, Alk, Calcium and Magnesium consumptions for more than six months that’s some one that loves the hobby and it’s learning.
When I see a new reefer that talks about Apex, led channels and ph graphs i know it’s merchant best friend and after spending all money it will quit the hobby.
Try get to basics and enjoy.

 

[Maddlesrain]

Personally, I find all the ‘do-dads’ really fascinating and worth it. However, I’m also just about the must technically challenged person there is, so it takes me a very long time (and a lot of help - from other members or google) to program anything on my Apex. Like watching corals grow, the equipment takes patience to set-up properly. You aren’t going to get it 100% perfect the first time (especially for lights and flow).

I’m surprised you’ve had so many equipment failures and agree, they must be getting wet or are being very roughly handled. I’ve had the same skimmer and mp10 vortechs for about the last 4-5 years. Most of my other equipment was upgraded for automation this summer.

I started off extremely low-tech and went that way for years. There’s nothing wrong with reefing that way. Some of the best tanks are the simplest ones, but for me, the automation and gadgets are worth it and add an extra element to my tank I didn’t have before.

 

[Grey Guy]

I have a temperature display, with an alarm and a 31 dollar temp controller, that replaces my blown Apex. To clarify, that’s what I mean by high tech vs. low tech. I wouldn’t run without a temperature controller either. I no longer regard basic electronics as high tech, unless there is some kind of microprocessor involved.

 

[Grey Guy]

After my previous experience with the best of the best, I will now prefer to use individual controls to manage my tank, rather than one master controller for everything. I GUESS PROBABLY BOTH WOULD BE THE BEST. The advantage of individual components, is that they are cheaper to purchase, cheaper to replace, and cheaper to keep a backup on hand.

 

[Lonely reefer's]

I’d like to add, If you have a 1,000 dollar control system to monitor and protect 10,000 worth of coral, it makes complete sense. But if you have a 1,000 dollar system that will either break or become obsolete, before you own 1,000 dollars worth of coral, then it doesn’t make much sense.

100% agree with this one.

 

[Bacon505]

Im a young reefer but i know for a fact that the reefing communities gone way back before any of these gadgets and equipments existed. Although old school reefing doesnt provide the atificial colors in corals like today, their system are fully functional and stable. I myself tries to follow the old style reefing and limit myself on new toys that the market had to offer. My philosophy is, less gadgets=lesser chance to fail. We tend to depend and rely too much on the equipments we have in our system.