Is nutrient control an effective method of treating algae in a reef?

BRS
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There might be a reason why the concentration of each particular nutrient in a particular environment might be important, but for this we would have to consider (for each nutrient) whether there would be a favorable or unfavorable gradient between the internal environment of a given organism and the external environment in which it lives, and a possibility of passive diffusion by its membrane or wall in relation to that nutrient, so that the enrichment of the medium favored its absorption and the impoverishment of the medium caused direct deficiency, by diffusion passive, and may harm it.

As an example to the contrary, we would have the case of the ammonia elimination by the fish, which is done by the concentration gradient in relation to the environment and, therefore, when the level of ammonia increases in the environment it will also make it difficult to eliminate it by the fish organism, and this ends up poisoning him.

For nutrients that are actively absorbed by the body, sometimes even using chemical binders for this, as is the case of iron uptake by siderophores (at least by bacteria) in impoverished environments of this element, I do not believe that "low concentrations" or certain "reasons and proportions" have the importance they have given.

Regards
 
sprouseod said:
https://www.bulkreefsupply.com/vide...-time-to-dose-nitrate-brstv-tank-trials-ep20/
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Thanks for the link.

FWIW, they provided no evidence that a ratio is the thing to focus on. They hand waved about the Redfield ratio, but then also went on to describe why they picked two exact particular values. If they ever generate data that those values were desirable, that will be the conclusion: changing from undetectable nitrate to a higher value caused "X'. They did not test different ratios, or the same ratio at different absolute values, hence neither we nor they can draw any conclusions about the importance of the ratio.

The plan they have, to dose nitrate to a reef with undetectable nitrate, is a fine one. It is one I commonly suggest for a number of reasons. ;)
 
sprouseod said:
https://www.bulkreefsupply.com/vide...-time-to-dose-nitrate-brstv-tank-trials-ep20/
Click to expand...

FWIW, I will also add they I think their comment about an infinite supply in the ocean is misguided and makes no sense.

It was suggested as part of an explanation of why 0.1 ppm nitrate might be OK in the ocean but not necessarily in a reef tank. As if the volume of the ocean can make up for the low concentration.

I don't see how that makes sense. Differences in flow rate might make sense to explain why corals might take up more nitrate from 0.1 ppm nitrate in the ocean than in a reef tank, if a coral actually depleted the nitrate from the volume around them, but whether there is extra nitrate twelve feet away or not is meaningless to a coral.
 
Imo the redfield ratio, if green algae need 16 nitrogen and 1 phosphoros, and the supply has 16 nitrogen and 1.5 phosphorus, then when the green algae remove that whats left is only .5 phosphorus. This leaves phosphorus available to species that can grow without nitrate. Like cyano.

So thats the only reason i can see to control those ratios. But itll make you nuts!
 
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Deltec
The great question that really arises is that it is not the nutrients that can be 'measured' that are limiting this or that species that take advantage of them, but rather the micro nutrients or 'nutrient-trace', often undetectable in the tests common, that is exhausted in the process of growth stimulated by those that are abundant and measured. Iron could be one of them, zinc and even copper or cadmium, others, as long as its lack would not allow the formation of metalloproteinases or metalloproteins essential to the metabolism of the being that we are trying to suppress or create.

Redfield has established the proportion of carbon, nitrate, and phosphate in the plankton ORGANISMS, not the proportion of carbon, nitrate and phosphate in the ENVIRONMENT in which this plankton develops. The interpretation we gave to his work is on our own, not because he has stated it, so we can not assume that Redfield was wrong, but only that we misinterpret him.

Regards
 
I would also add that we have zero understanding of, in a reef tank, how much N corals and macroalgae get from ammonia, and how much from nitrate. :)
 
Randy Holmes-Farley said:
A number of us suspect iron (or perhaps another trace element) may be a limiting factor for algae (that is, why there is none) in some of the very nice SPS reefs with 1+ ppm phosphate and 100+ ppm nitrate. :)
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Maybe it is iron levels that would be a good target. According to these charts zooxanthella need just 50pM to reach the log growth phase. Not sure what pest algae need but I'd assume much higher than that.
Screen Shot 2018-05-19 at 11.50.45 AM.png
 
rock_lobster said:
Maybe it is iron levels that would be a good target. According to these charts zooxanthella need just 50pM to reach the log growth phase. Not sure what pest algae need but I'd assume much higher than that.
Screen Shot 2018-05-19 at 11.50.45 AM.png
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Iron levels are a good target, but they are difficult to control for chemical and biochemical reasons ... coincidentally I have spent some time looking for a way for this to be possible, but I am still in the information gathering stage, for later try to model a procedure that allows to work this parameter, as already mentioned here:

Could it be iron, the great hidden enemy of reef aquarists?

Regards
 
I think iron would be limiting in non water change tanks packed with corals.
 
www.dinkinsaquaticgardens.com
It seems like iron ought to be a limiting factor given it's low natural concentration levels, but clearly there are excellent recycling and/or conservation methods at work within even the ecosystem of a tank.

Regular feedings and water changes don't even seem required to supply it as I've gone long periods without both on my tank. (having no fish seems make it easy)

That's only an explanation so far as it explains why I don't think we'll be able to limit iron from our vantage point....not in a useful manner where "Good Guys" aren't also harmed.

Folks fail all the time in every possible direction at "properly limiting" N or even P, which are nutrients that we have pretty dang good controls for, including tests.

How will we limit iron without causing harm to things we want to use it? According to my understanding there isn't even a realistic way to test for iron.
 
Iron comes in with every feeding. That doesn't mean it is or is not limiting, but it will be hard to control aside from dosing (which I routinely did).
 
The idea I have tried to develop is to make iron "unavailable", or hamper its access to microbiology within the system, when necessary (to combat dinoflagellates, for example), and to maintain the necessary supply to animals through food. For this, I think I should try Desferrioxamine B (a sideróforo of terrestrial origin), that I hope is not so ready to use by the marine microbiogia and that can be easily removed from the water with aluminum media or activated carbonj, to which also binds very well.

Dosing the desferrioxamine when necessary and withdrawing it when all is well, or if it is necessary. That is the idea, it lacks the experimentation.

Regards
 
Top Shelf Aquatics
Jose Mayo said:
The idea I have tried to develop is to make iron "unavailable", or hamper its access to microbiology within the system, when necessary (to combat dinoflagellates, for example), and to maintain the necessary supply to animals through food. For this, I think I should try Desferrioxamine B (a sideróforo of terrestrial origin), that I hope is not so ready to use by the marine microbiogia and that can be easily removed from the water with aluminum media or activated carbonj, to which also binds very well.

Dosing the desferrioxamine when necessary and withdrawing it when all is well, or if it is necessary. That is the idea, it lacks the experimentation.

Regards
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I'd be interested to see the result. It would be especially interesting in a tank with problem dinos already in place. :)
 
Where could i buy this medicine?
 
WWC
Cory said:
Where could i buy this medicine?
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It is sold for human treatments of metabolic iron disorders, under the pharmaceutical name Desferal, as below:

Desferal® deferoxamine mesylate for injection USP

There are no protocols for treatments in aquariums and, by similarity, if I were to test it I would consider the average human dosage (20 to 60 mg / kg), converting kg / liter, that is, I would start with 20 mg / liter in single dose, to experiment.
 
Jose Mayo said:
It is sold for human treatments of metabolic iron disorders, under the pharmaceutical name Desferal, as below:

Desferal® deferoxamine mesylate for injection USP

There are no protocols for treatments in aquariums and, by similarity, if I were to test it I would consider the average human dosage (20 to 60 mg / kg), converting kg / liter, that is, I would start with 20 mg / liter in single dose, to experiment.
Click to expand...

I found it here, but its very expensive and requires a prescription

https://www.canadadrugs.com/products/desferal-vials/500mg
 
BRS

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