Is steady state pH healthy for a reef?

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I looked into this a bit recently.
What information do you base your conclusion on?

@lapin posted the following on another thread:

There is really no reason to run lights 24/7. It will not hurt your DT as long as the ambient light does not reach the tank. Plants and animals evolved to run on a light / dark cycle. Anything photosynthetic needs a dark period that is not only science but proven in nature as well.
As per a post by @saltyfilmfolks
" You can but I wouldn't. Photosynthesis does need a rest.
http://www.reefedition.com/ph-and-the-reef-aquarium/
http://reefkeeping.com/issues/2006-10/rhf/index.php
http://reefkeeping.com/issues/2005-08/eb/index.php "

I have not read the above links. I don’t need research papers to prove nature works. I emulate nature.
 
@lapin posted the following on another thread:

There is really no reason to run lights 24/7. It will not hurt your DT as long as the ambient light does not reach the tank. Plants and animals evolved to run on a light / dark cycle. Anything photosynthetic needs a dark period that is not only science but proven in nature as well.
As per a post by @saltyfilmfolks
" You can but I wouldn't. Photosynthesis does need a rest.
http://www.reefedition.com/ph-and-the-reef-aquarium/
http://reefkeeping.com/issues/2006-10/rhf/index.php
http://reefkeeping.com/issues/2005-08/eb/index.php "

I have not read the above links. I don’t need research papers to prove nature works. I emulate nature.
I'm not arguing one way or the other. I'm just curious what algaebarn is basing his conclusion on.
 
Musings from the “Lazy Boy” Recliner: @Dan_P @Scrubber_steve @Lasse

For certain, I march to a differrent drummer, I listen to nature. I emulate what works. Bacteria, algae and sponges have had billions of years to work out the details. They are the biofiltration platform of my 25 year old Jaubert Plenum system.

After 47 years of reefkeeping, I see no merit in steady state pH in our reef tanks. The coral reefs in the world fluctuate between 8.2 and 7.8 pH. I see no point to changing the natural cycle of things.

I use aroggonite solubility as a passive buffer management system.
I agree.

To me what is important is that the daily change itself is stable not that pH is a constant value. That said I also think keeping kH is important also. Which is very easy to do with baking soda.

my .02
 
Is steady state pH healthy for a reef?

Not if the steady state is a pH of 7.2.
But if the steady state is a pH of 8.2, why would that be unhealthy?
 
Is steady state pH healthy for a reef?

Not if the steady state is a pH of 7.2.
But if the steady state is a pH of 8.2, why would that be unhealthy?

Let’s flip the discussion. Does steady state pH of 8.2 grow more coral. With my mixed garden, it does not grow more, but I don’t grow SPS. IMO, alkalinity grows coral, not pH. It would seem to me, that elevated pH would lower alkalinity. Just my thoughts on the matter.


pH is not steady in present day parameters that coral come from: 8.2 is the maximum with a minimum of 7.8 pH. I see no reason to change the parameters that coral come from.
 
The concept that pH control needs to be steady state is a sacred cow that has been around in hobby forums for many years. Vendors sell equipment to make it happen using controllers and convince hobbiest it is necessary. I have seen no real data to show that opposite light cycle or pH controllers produce better results. I ran a mud/macro refugium on opposite light cycle for 20 years, then 4 years with both display & refugium lights at same time. I saw no difference with health of tank.
 
I'm not arguing one way or the other. I'm just curious what algaebarn is basing his conclusion on.


@AlgaeBarn grew Chaeto under 12 hour and 24 hour period. Chaeto grew more by weight with 12 hour photoperiod.
 
The concept that pH control needs to be steady state is a sacred cow that has been around in hobby forums for many years. Vendors sell equipment to make it happen using controllers and convince hobbiest it is necessary. I have seen no real data to show that opposite light cycle or pH controllers produce better results. I ran a mud/macro refugium on opposite light cycle for 20 years, then 4 years with both display & refugium lights at same time. I saw no difference with health of tank.
In regards to this, & your previous post, keep in mind that an aquarium & the natural ocean are very different & need to be treated differently. Ph in the open ocean is very steady, & in shallow water reef systems close to, & well off shore, pH can vary a lot. Coral reef pools form at low tide & over night, when photosynthesis ceases, pH can drop from 8.3 down to as low as 7.5, I have read. Reefs near river outlets possibly even more.
Some Indonesian reefs, sited at volcanic outlets spewing out co2, have a high pH of 7.8, & no dought lower at low tide nights. How much does pH matter in this case for example?

Abstract
Coral community patterns on some Indonesian reefs influenced by CO2 from underwater volcanic vents and nutrients from eutrophication pressures were examined.
Coral cover and seawater characteristics at acidified sites (with varied levels of eutrophication), i.e., moderate acidification (pH: 7.87 ± 0.04), low acidification (pH: 8.01 ± 0.04) and reference (pH: 8.2 ± 0.02), were observed at reefs associated with Minahasa Seashore, and Mahengetang and Gunung Api Islands. Results showed that coral community patterns varied among locations and acidified sites, e.g., domination of families such as Alcyoniidae, Acroporidae, Poritidae and Heliporidae, and with different levels of abiotic cover. Surprisingly, pH was not detected as the major determining factor. This finding probably relates to tropical seawater temperatures being high enough to still allow for aragonite deposition even at pH values down to 7.8. Nutrients (phosphate and dissolved inorganic nitrogen) were shown to be the main determining factors that influenced community patterns on the observed coral reefs.....


Ocean pH in regards to coral reefs is hyped beyond belief. Despite enviornmentalists wanting us to believe coral reefs are extremely delicate , they are infact extremely tough & resillent, adapting to what ever the situation, as proven by the fact they exist to this day. Coral tricks for adapting to ocean acidification. They have endured any number of extreme natural disasters via internal & external forces, several ice age periods & non ice age periods (we are still in an ice age now) where global average temperature has varied extremely. Ocean levels that have varied by up to 160 meters, so that during the last ice age where the Great Barrier reef is today was dry land just 10,000 years ago. It seems that natural reefs continue on despite what the pH is.

The fraction of CO2 in the ocean, as a gas or hydrated into carbonic acid (rainwater) is almost zero at any time. It exists as carbonate & bi-carbonate, a building block for calcification, & the source of CO2 for underwater photosynthesis.

In an aquarium, because any number of things can change, & change quickly, we all usually try to obtain a level of consistency. A pH flucuating by a large amount, well the corals may have trouble adapting to this if other things are stressing them? Also, pH in an aquarium is an indication of oxygen levels.
 
@AlgaeBarn grew Chaeto under 12 hour and 24 hour period. Chaeto grew more by weight with 12 hour photoperiod.
OK, so I once argued for a light/dark cycle myself, based on nature. But when challenged I researched what little info there is, done some testing myself, & could not come to any absolute conclusion either way, other than this - the light/dark cycle in nature is not a rule, but just one example. If our planet rotated just once on it axis in the same time it takes the Earth to fully travel once around the sun, just as is the relationship between the moon & the Earth, there would still be plants & algae growing on the side of the Earth receiving 24/7 sunlight.

What I learned;

The case for 24/7.

I changed the illumination period from 18 hours a day to 24/7 on my algae scrubber for about a month. The growth was significantly faster & thicker & my NO3 fell from an average of 6ppm to zero.
The ulva stayed the same emerald green color - no brown or dead algae at all - no detrimental effect to the algae in that time period. So the increase in illumination duration correlated with an increase in photosynthesis & assimilation of nutrients.

Depending on the algae species, if there is a constant or near constant supply, even traces of - nitrogen - phosphate - iron- potassium - CO2, I can see no problem with 24/7 lighting. It becomes more a question of what level of NO3 you want to maintain, as light duration will alter this level. Bud Turbo likes the idea of running the illumination 24/7 but at an intensity lower than what would be used for an 18/6 light dark period so constant filtering is occurring but not to the point of reaching zero NO3 in the case of a coral system.

Myself, I would use 24/7 if NO3 rises significantly higher than target level. Then reduce light duration to maintain a specific NO3 level.
I prefer to have the algae scrubber lights out when the tank lights are on so that corals can utilise the available nutrients rather than the filter.


The case against 24/7

I could make the short statement –“24/7 illumination would place a stress on the algae as a dark cycle allows for re-oxidation of the electron transporters of the photosynthetic apparatus.” ???

Or this paper - Dark respiration in the light and in darkness of three marine macroalgal species’

Dark respiration (non-photorespiratory mitochondrial respiration), which occurs both in the light (RL) and in darkness (RD), is vital for growth and survival of algae and plays a critical role in modulating the carbon balance of individual cells and whole-plants.

Much of the usable energy (ATP), reducing power (e.g. NADPH and NADH) and carbon skeleton intermediates required for biosynthesis and cellular maintenance are generated by dark respiration in a regular manner.

Growth requires a supply of reducing equivalents and carbon skeletons for the biosynthetic reactions, which are produced only by respiration.

3.2 Comparison between RL and RD

The results in present study that dark respiration of the three marine macroalgae, H. fusiformis, G. lemaneiformis and U. lactuca being partially inhibited in the light are in accordance with the findings previously reported in several species of terrestrial counterparts (e.g. Shapiro et al., 2004; Wang et al., 2001; Atkin et al., 2000, 1997; Villar et al., 1994). The percentage of inhibition of respiration in the light at the growth temperature observed in marine macroalgae in this study was similar to the results (28%–53%) found in the terrestrial C3 herbaceous plant, Xanthium strumarium (Shapiro et al., 2004). Our results suggest that compared to RD, RL is a more accurate estimate of nonphotorespiratory carbon loss in marine macroalgae during the light periods, irrespective of the growth CO2 conditions.
 
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I find nothing conclusive on either side of the discussion.
Well i guess i can say, without doubt, that the ulva growth definitely increased with 24/7 lighting. But i don't want the ulva illuminated for that time because NO3 zeroed out.

In regards to Dark Respiration,
it is vital for algae growth,
it occurs whether the algae is illuminated or not,
but is inhibited when the algae is illuminated.

So the question is; will Dark Respiration occur at a high enough rate in continuous light for the algae to remain healthy & grow & photosynthesize as efficiently, or better as the same algae kept in a dark/light cycle ?
 
Well i guess i can say, without doubt, that the ulva growth definitely increased with 24/7 lighting. But i don't want the ulva illuminated for that time because NO3 zeroed out.

In regards to Dark Respiration,
it is vital for algae growth,
it occurs whether the algae is illuminated or not,
but is inhibited when the algae is illuminated.

So the question is; will Dark Respiration occur at a high enough rate in continuous light for the algae to remain healthy & grow & photosynthesize as efficiently, or better as the same algae kept in a dark/light cycle ?

Your findings with ulva growing under 24 hour photoperiod do not coincide with what @AlgaeBarn found with Chaetomorphy. I find that interesting.
 
Your findings with ulva growing under 24 hour photoperiod do not coincide with what @AlgaeBarn found with Chaetomorphy. I find that interesting.
Different algae, but both fast metabolisers. Perhaps algaebarn's system was lacking a nutrient - limiting growth?
 
The question of steady state pH was posed to make the point that taking steps to design out normal pH swings associated with photoperiod on /off are unnecessary. Without a doubt, corals are durable and can adjust to many things.

@randyBRS from BRSTV has some preliminary information on Chaetomorphy refugium operation change from 24 hour photoperiod to 12 hour photoperiod. It supports what @AlgaeBarn documented.

Until someone proves differently, the only advantage I see to a 24 hour photoperiod is that no controller is required.
 
The question of steady state pH was posed to make the point that taking steps to design out normal pH swings associated with photoperiod on /off are unnecessary. Without a doubt, corals are durable and can adjust to many things.
I believe stabilizing pH in an aquarium is a positive step, & is easily achieved using efficient algae filtration.

@randyBRS from BRSTV has some preliminary information on Chaetomorphy refugium operation change from 24 hour photoperiod to 12 hour photoperiod. It supports what @AlgaeBarn documented.
Where can this info be found?

Until someone proves differently, the only advantage I see to a 24 hour photoperiod is that no controller is required.
I believe I showed that it at least depends on the type of algae grown, & the available nutrients.
 
Both AlgaeBarn and BRSTV post on this website. I cut & pasted their replies from other threads that I posted.

Randy at BRSTV has indicated to me that the comparison between 24 hour & 12 hour photoperiod for Chaetomorphy refugium is now scheduled for a comparison test by BRSTV.
 
Randy at BRSTV has indicated to me that the comparison between 24 hour & 12 hour photoperiod for Chaetomorphy refugium is now scheduled for a comparison test by BRSTV.
Ok. So they have no data as yet you mean? Or do they already have some ?
 
Ok. So they have no data as yet you mean? Or do they already have some ?

Steve, you posted before & after Randy’s post #15 on
https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/macro-algae-as-primary-nutrient-export.482211/


[This one is heavily debated indeed, I really like is as a topic and it's now on the board. Completely anecdotally, the BRS160 fuge seemingly "took off" after switching to a 12hr lighting period over the 24hr we had initially started with. I couldn't say with certainty that the increased growth came from adding a period of night time respiration, but theoretically it seems plausible (given that the same applies to the natural world as it pertains to lighting).]

I honestly don't know when we could get to this one as our list is extremely long, but I've captured it.
 

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