Is this Uronema?

Peng1606 · Aug 20, 2020

Hi,
Recently got 8 chromis and have placed in quarantine tank. This is now 3 weeks into quarantine and they are eating great but noticed some sores on the bodies 2 weeks ago.
They are in copper treated water maintained between 2.1-2.4 (checked with Hanna). Also have been adding metronidazole to water every 48hrs x 12 days. Have treated with Furan-2 and Kanaplex also in combination with the metronidazole.
Any suggestions would be appreciated. Thanks

JasonK84 · Aug 20, 2020

I don’t believe so. Looks like an injury.

Peng1606 · Aug 20, 2020

I was hoping not... but over last 6 months have lost 2 batches of smaller chromis and anthias likely to uronema. They all don’t last long in quarantine so this batch I started treatment from early. @Humblefish any suggestions? Thanks

Jay Hemdal · Aug 21, 2020

I see two leasion - one behind the eye and one above the anus, is that correct? That "erupting lesion" is almost always Uronema. The reason the disease is so difficult to treat is that the protozoan lives between the fish's muscle cells - and you don't see it until the lesion grows and breaks the surface, then it is too late to treat.

One treatment that is suggested is daily 150 ppm formalin dips, but formalin is difficult to get right now. The other treatments you are running are appropriate (copper may have some benefit against Uronema, and bacteria often con-infect with Uronema).

What is the salinity of the tank? Fish with large lesions are often helped by keeping the salinity slightly lower, to help them balance osmotically.... a specific gravity of 1.019 or so.

To be honest - I cannot believe the issues we're seeing with Anthias and Chromis right now, they were always a bit touchy, but now it seems everyone is having trouble with them. I started a thread in the fish discussion area - it seems that it is related to how long the fish spend in the supply chain, and COVID is causing that time to grow much longer, and the fish are suffering as a result.

Jay

vetteguy53081 · Aug 21, 2020

Same here- lesions and cysts.
I believe a freshwater bath or epsom bath to start with then treatment

ReefGamer · Aug 21, 2020

I bought 3 and put in my main tank, They died one by one over the next three days and the last one had the red gash and I was for sure I had Uronema and I was so mad at the LFS for the discussion we had. But nothing else has died since then, including anthias and all the fish I had and have added. SO, I do not believe I have it, so I do think a normal bacterial infection can simulate Uronema. They were definitely fighting btw, the two picked on the small one that died first and then the other two fought each other.

Peng1606 · Aug 21, 2020

Jay Hemdal said:
I see two leasion - one behind the eye and one above the anus, is that correct? That "erupting lesion" is almost always Uronema. The reason the disease is so difficult to treat is that the protozoan lives between the fish's muscle cells - and you don't see it until the lesion grows and breaks the surface, then it is too late to treat.

One treatment that is suggested is daily 150 ppm formalin dips, but formalin is difficult to get right now. The other treatments you are running are appropriate (copper may have some benefit against Uronema, and bacteria often con-infect with Uronema).

What is the salinity of the tank? Fish with large lesions are often helped by keeping the salinity slightly lower, to help them balance osmotically.... a specific gravity of 1.019 or so.

To be honest - I cannot believe the issues we're seeing with Anthias and Chromis right now, they were always a bit touchy, but now it seems everyone is having trouble with them. I started a thread in the fish discussion area - it seems that it is related to how long the fish spend in the supply chain, and COVID is causing that time to grow much longer, and the fish are suffering as a result.

Jay

Hi Jay,
I have formalin but 10% concentration (helps being in medical field... With a friendly lab manager). I didn’t do formalin dips yet because @Humblefish had said in some other posts that not to dip fish with the red ulcers in formalin. I have Acriflavine 0.1% that I’m started using as dips at 10ml per liter... so far one dip.
Have grammas in quarantine tank with them which I’m separating out and doing formalin dip before placing in new sterile quarantine tank. Will dip them again before moving them to display tank soon.
I agree the supply chain issues now probably making it worse... and I’m in the Caribbean where it has to be shipped out here from wholesalers in US so that takes even longer... and lots more expensive. A chromis costs anywhere from USD25-40 each.
I hope that I can save these guys in some way... they seem to be eating and swimming around ok for now. Will continue Acriflavine dips... also have chloroquine to try.

lakai · Aug 21, 2020

Jay Hemdal said:
To be honest - I cannot believe the issues we're seeing with Anthias and Chromis right now, they were always a bit touchy, but now it seems everyone is having trouble with them. I started a thread in the fish discussion area - it seems that it is related to how long the fish spend in the supply chain, and COVID is causing that time to grow much longer, and the fish are suffering as a result.

Jay

This year I've lost 8 chromis, 1 square back anthias, and 1 blackbarred wrasse to uronema. All different orders. there really is a problem with them in the supply chain. Before this year I've never seen it before.

AcroNem · Aug 21, 2020

Here is a source for full strength formalin, where I order mine

Formaldehyde or Formalin, 37%, 16oz for sale. Buy from The Science Company.

This Formaldehyde or Formalin solution has 15% methanol. It is a colorless liquid with a strong pungent odor and is soluble in water and alcohol.

www.sciencecompany.com

It is pretty bad right now, the state some of these fish are coming in. Diseases were always something to deal with but has been much worse for a while now.

CindyKz · Aug 21, 2020

@Jay Hemdal I'm just curious, what about metronidazole? I had 7 chromis in QT a while back, probably about 10 months ago give or take. One developed red sores and died. I treated the QT with metronidazole as per this thread. No dips though. The remaining chromis are in my DT and fine. So it worked...or the other 6 chromis somehow dodged the bullet....or I misdiagnosed in the first place.

Jay Hemdal · Aug 21, 2020

CindyKz said:
@Jay Hemdal I'm just curious, what about metronidazole? I had 7 chromis in QT a while back, probably about 10 months ago give or take. One developed red sores and died. I treated the QT with metronidazole as per this thread. No dips though. The remaining chromis are in my DT and fine. So it worked...or the other 6 chromis somehow dodged the bullet....or I misdiagnosed in the first place.

IDK - I use metronidazole and dimetridazole orally to treat flagellates in the gut, I never tried it as a bath for Uronema. One key point though - did the remaining chromis show lesions that got better, or did they just not die? Many time, only some chromis in a group will develop Uronema.

Jay

Jay Hemdal · Aug 21, 2020

Peng1606 said:
Hi Jay,
I have formalin but 10% concentration (helps being in medical field... With a friendly lab manager). I didn’t do formalin dips yet because @Humblefish had said in some other posts that not to dip fish with the red ulcers in formalin. I have Acriflavine 0.1% that I’m started using as dips at 10ml per liter... so far one dip.
Have grammas in quarantine tank with them which I’m separating out and doing formalin dip before placing in new sterile quarantine tank. Will dip them again before moving them to display tank soon.
I agree the supply chain issues now probably making it worse... and I’m in the Caribbean where it has to be shipped out here from wholesalers in US so that takes even longer... and lots more expensive. A chromis costs anywhere from USD25-40 each.
I hope that I can save these guys in some way... they seem to be eating and swimming around ok for now. Will continue Acriflavine dips... also have chloroquine to try.

That 10% formalin might be buffered, I wouldn't use it. As I recall, the dosing also gets all wonky - "formalin" is 37% formaldehyde gas in water. We use it as if it is 100% active material. I can't remember if that 10% stuff is a 9:1 dilution or something else.

No doubt formalin dips are painful to a fish with open sores. We once used DMSO to try to get the formalin into a fish's tissues that had inter-cellular Uronema...never id that again, you could almost hear the fish scream. That said, Noga also lists formalin dips as the most effective Rx.

To be honest, IMO once large lesions are seen, you are pretty much going to be in damage control mode, losing the fish with lesions, but trying to save the others.

Jay

Peng1606 · Aug 22, 2020

Will try formalin dips and see... don’t have much choice at the moment... but it’s ridiculous how many ppl have problems when uronema these days with chromis and anthias.

CindyKz · Aug 22, 2020

Jay Hemdal said:
IDK - I use metronidazole and dimetridazole orally to treat flagellates in the gut, I never tried it as a bath for Uronema. One key point though - did the remaining chromis show lesions that got better, or did they just not die? Many time, only some chromis in a group will develop Uronema.

Jay

They just didn't die lol....no lesions. Dodged the bullet I guess. Wonder if they are still carriers.

Jay Hemdal · Aug 22, 2020

CindyKz said:
They just didn't die lol....no lesions. Dodged the bullet I guess. Wonder if they are still carriers.

Uronema is ubiquitous, it lives as a non-parasite in most/all aquariums (it normally eats bacteria) Your fish won't be "carriers", but any new fish that has injured skin, of a susceptible species, could still come down with it.

Jay

vetteguy53081 · Aug 22, 2020

Jay Hemdal said:
Uronema is ubiquitous, it lives as a non-parasite in most/all aquariums (it normally eats bacteria) Your fish won't be "carriers", but any new fish that has injured skin, of a susceptible species, could still come down with it.

Jay

Formalin bath is my choice for chromis and anthias. Right now , it is impossible to find and I am not comfortable with the 37% formaldehyde solution recommendation. If no signs of skin issues, I would look at internal parasite or other internal as possible cause.

Jay Hemdal · Aug 22, 2020

vetteguy53081 said:
Formalin bath is my choice for chromis and anthias. Right now , it is impossible to find and I am not comfortable with the 37% formaldehyde solution recommendation. If no signs of skin issues, I would look at internal parasite or other internal as possible cause.

Hi,

Not sure I understand - 37% formaldehyde gas in water *is* formalin. People are able to get it through biological supply houses, but shipping is an issue (can't go via USPS, I think UPS ground or common carrier only).

Jay

Peng1606 · Aug 23, 2020

Ok have separated the grammas and the chromis into 2 sterile buckets... each set had 45mins formalin bath and going into formalin treated water after (got the undiluted 37% formalin from friendly lab manager).
The chromis with red ulcers survived the bath with no issues. Will repeat the baths for the chromis again after 48hrs.
Will watch the grammas for 48hrs then bath again before going into display. They have been in quarantine with copper for 28 days. Hopefully that will be enough to deal with the uronema risk with the grammas... @Jay Hemdal will that be ok for the grammas?

Jay Hemdal · Aug 23, 2020

What about dosing the formalin bath every 24 hours? Are you going to try and maintain the fish in buckets? You mention giving the fish a bath and then they will go into formalin treated water - what concentration? If you do that, it should be low, 25 ppm.

Did you see my note a few msgs back where I mention that once the fish shows lesions, it is almost always impossible to cure....I just don't want to give you any false hope.

As long as the gramma has no lesions it *should* be o.k. to move...

Jay

Peng1606 · Aug 23, 2020

Jay Hemdal said:
What about dosing the formalin bath every 24 hours? Are you going to try and maintain the fish in buckets? You mention giving the fish a bath and then they will go into formalin treated water - what concentration? If you do that, it should be low, 25 ppm.

Did you see my note a few msgs back where I mention that once the fish shows lesions, it is almost always impossible to cure....I just don't want to give you any false hope.

As long as the gramma has no lesions it *should* be o.k. to move...

Jay

I could try that also. Using formalin at 1ml per 10 gallons for the low dose in bucket. And 0.6ml per gallon for 45min baths.
I know it’s really hard to cure once they have lesions but will try. Should I separate the one with lesions out into another bucket or should they be ok with the baths and formalin treated water together?
I will put the grammas in display once I check them over. I’m being extra cautious because of size of display as have a 650 gallon tank.