issue with my queen angel.

[ddc0715]

I run copper in my fowler at 2.0-3.0 tested with an h.c. think of it as a 220 qt tank...I did this because I was losing fish, some fish (not all) quite often. all are fine since running copper power. until now. there have been no new ads since the addition of the queen angel several weeks ago.

a few days ago several fish started flashing. it was odd because I run copper. I added a thread about my worry on March 9th.

https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/can-you-mix-copper-power-with-c-phosphate.897935/

well, my queen angel became really sick after I noticed the flashing--- non moving, tail up, nose down, cloudy and speckled cover eyes, kinda sick. just plain ugly...

so I hit the tank with API GC, an Api Erythromycin. I'm happy to report that she is pulling out of it and is now swimming around in a small area. but still comes back to the corner to rest. and she shivers like someone that had a cold chilli.. still not out of the woods but a big improvement.

I was able to snap these photos of her today. as you can see, something is wrong. its somewhat whiteish fuzz (fungi popped into my mind) and what appears to be fine rot. hard to tell the diff between nipping and fin rot..but I don't know what this is. the api gc and EM with the copper power, really worked well. I love that stuff. it brought her back from certain death....

any idea what this could be? and what would be the best treatment. to pull her over the finish line. she has taken a beating from it. but she's a trooper for sure. think she looks bad now. u should have seen her in the beginning. she was 100 % uglier. I wrote her off for dead kinda ugly.

I do not plan on pulling her out and I'm ok with treating the entire tank. like I said its a fowler and I saw a few others flashing at the same time she became sick. lucky all other fish are fine. she was the only one effect..

lastly whatever this is....how does it survive in copper ranges between 2.0 and 3.0. I'm one step closer to figuring out why fish are getting sick in a copper-dosed dt. I will fill in the gaps as you ask me questions.

 

[Sharkbait19]

#fishmedic

 

[MnFish1]

The skin lesion (the large one) - looks like a secondary infection. What the primary event was - whether injury, copper irritation, etc IDK.

The fin damage looks like fin rot.

Tail up nose down suggests a swim bladder issue (often due to an infection).

If we try to take the easiest answer - all of these things are related - and seem bacterial.

I don't remember (from the old thread) whether you ever treated for flukes?

IMHO - it is extremely difficult to use many of these medications in a main tank. (Saying this for the general population - I know your situation from before). You cannot be sure of the levels, etc. Rather than putting the antibiotics in the water - mixing with food can be preferred in this situation.

Lastly, copper is an immunosuppressant - and can cause flashing on its own - which then causes injury - which then becomes infected.

FYI - here is a compatibility guide for which medications can be used together - may be a little out-dated https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/medication-compatibility-guide.313491/
@Jay Hemdal

 

[ddc0715]

one thing I remember is that I added cuprisorb to the tank because i felt 100% confident that the copper treatment addressed all my old issues and it was about two days after adding that to the tank, that the flashing began.

I have pellets that are soaked in heavy levels of vit c, vit m, metroplex, ,kanoplex, and selcon all fish; that have lived thru all other fish deaths eat these pellets. I have never seen her eat one... so the immunity thing makes cents.

no, i did not provide dip/ fluke treatment on its own. im worried the change in water would shock her in a bad way. but praziquantel is in API GC so i can only assume that this help with flukes.

 

[Jay Hemdal Verified Community Expert]

one thing I remember is that I added cuprisorb to the tank because i felt 100% confident that the copper treatment addressed all my old issues and it was about two days after adding that to the tank, that the flashing began.

I have pellets that are soaked in heavy levels of vit c, vit m, metroplex, ,kanoplex, and selcon all fish; that have lived thru all other fish deaths eat these pellets. I have never seen her eat one... so the immunity thing makes cents.

no, i did not provide dip/ fluke treatment on its own. im worried the change in water would shock her in a bad way. but praziquantel is in API GC so i can only assume that this help with flukes.

Lots of possible issue packed into one fish! What copper are you using? Going higher than 2.5 ppm with coppersafe or copper power is not without some inherent risk.

Flukes are not controlled by copper. Your GC would knock them back, but then, secondary bacterial infections can crop up.

The caudal fin on the angel is pretty sharply demarcated, I'd suspect another fish in the tank has been biting at it, probably when you aren't around. Fin rot is generally less angular.

Jay

 

[ddc0715]

i use copper power. and i have never tried to get above 2.5 sometimes it reads 2.96 at its highest not sure why based on the copper math.

i have made a real effort to just stare at the tank and watch to see if anyone is picking on her but have yet to see it happen.

 

[ddc0715]

well she is now making random swims across the tank 6' As for fish aggravation, well they all seem to take offense to her, even my diamond goby. no start up attacks but alot of in your face searming actions when she goes on the move.
tank mates are diamond goby, engineer goby,2 yellow tail damsels, Niger trigger, sailfin tang, Fiji fox face and a juv emporer angel. they all are about equally sized.give or take a few m.m.

 

[Jay Hemdal Verified Community Expert]

well she is now making random swims across the tank 6' As for fish aggravation, well they all seem to take offense to her, even my diamond goby. no start up attacks but alot of in your face searming actions when she goes on the move.
tank mates are diamond goby, engineer goby,2 yellow tail damsels, Niger trigger, sailfin tang, Fiji fox face and a juv emporer angel. they all are about equally sized.give or take a few m.m.

I wonder, is this "agonal motion" what people might term "death throes"? Fish will sometimes dart suddenly and randomly before they die.

Visually, is the fish worse?

Do you have a treatment tank available?

Jay

 

[MnFish1]

I wonder, is this "agonal motion" what people might term "death throes"? Fish will sometimes dart suddenly and randomly before they die.

Visually, is the fish worse?

Do you have a treatment tank available?

Jay

My comment - I assume agonal means - quite rapid jerks / swims? Correct?

 

[ddc0715]

the fish is alot better compared to the start of this issue..no swimming, no movement just laying around, LOOKED really bad poked her a time or to just to make sure she was alive kinda bad..... added the API GC & EM....then increased fin movement developed, then increased swimming range to a few inches forward and back only, then increased swimming to front to back , now swimming from left to right and forward and back. My appearance is 100% better, kinda like how we feel on day 7 after surgery.. im good but don't bother me. this swimming does require her to rest afterward and is not constant on the move swiming.

i do have a treatment tank up and running but I am fear full to move her into another tank ( shock and added stress).

this is why I went fowler so I would not have to play fisherman anymore. if one is sick they all get treated. it appears bacterial to me as well so that's how I am treating it. she will not eat the med pellets

I run copper power in her tank now (standard practice) I have hit tank 260(g) with a proper dose of API GC, & EM. That really helped a lot, but I'm out of that ( that large a dose depleted my reserves. so I am going to go with metroplex and kanaplex for a few days. this should put me in a 7-10day window for proper application of meds. once again all other fish are fine as it always has been.

 

[ddc0715]

The wound seems to be less fluffy today. An her colors are not as hazzy faded.

 

[MnFish1]

Agree it looks better. Hope it recovers

 

[MnFish1]

I re-looked at the pictures - the one big wound looks better - the fish itself - as you know - does not. I would follow your plan - and see what happens. No new medications, changes, etc

 

[ddc0715]

UPDATE FOR THOSE WHO ARE INTRESTED...... We are swimming more today.. but with issues. she is bumping into rocks. but not the glass, and bumps the sand bed when swiming down. and avoids/moves away from the other fish. I'm questioning her eyes. one does not look like the other it looks flattering not domed with way less yellow ring around it.

the wound is looking better by the day. but those fins still look like sticks.

as I was taking the pics she pooped out something in a big wod. pencil eraser size. it's half green and white. I will assume the Api gc and or the metro did this. understandable since she has never ate the metroplex soaked food.

I continue to dose Brightwell vitamin c and vitamin m to the tank twice a week. she becomes very active once the dose hits the water. like she's trying to eat. I'm pondering a fresh rodi dip now, since she appears stronger. I have several choices for a dip or a bath with having the following items on hand hydrogen peroxide, ruby rally pro, paraguard, api marine melafix. so should i do a dip or a bath? or neither

 

[MnFish1]

Watching with interest (great interest)

 

[MnFish1]

PS the angel does not look "good". The color is poor, and poop aside - the overall condition seems 'bad'. IS it eating?

 

[ddc0715]

i have not seen her eat yet. since being sick... prior to becoming sick she always ate first..... as for the color well I can not say I apparently never took a new fish photo.. uhhhhhhh. but i do know that I had an Emporer angel once whose colors faded out pretty bad like this girl... i used the same meds in a qt tank and once it passed a poop like this one. its color returned and started eating like a champ.... so im hopeful this angel will follow suit...

Emperor angel sick? If so what is it.

Ok this will be a long post because we love this fish.. we have had the emperir angel for about 1yr. Over the past few months my wife wants to know why he looks like faded bluejeans..i do not know. I pulled him and Qt him about 3 months ago and treated him with p.pro, ich-x, there was no change...

www.reef2reef.com

 

[sc50964]

Not sure if this has been asked or answered but what brand of copper did you use? Cuprisorb is best for cupramine but isn’t the best when it comes to coppersafe or copper power removal. Have you measured your copper level?

 

[ddc0715]

I was running copper power at 2.5 ish. IMO it was the addition of cupriasorb media that started ALL the flashing and rock running. and now here we are. not blaming the cupriasorb but that was the only change to the tank. i added it because all looked healthy so it was time to remove the copper that had been running for months.

 

[Jerry Barnes]

I’ve got a 300 FOWLR that I’ve had for 5 years. Occasionally ich will pop up. I use CP but only for a few weeks. I believe long term CP weakens the fish and shortens their life. My hippos and Achilles seem the most irritated with the CP. Good luck with your treatment. Queen angles are one of my favorites. I’ve got a 5 year old one.