JCOLE's Big Box of Rocks

[JCOLE]

@Big E Hey Ed! I am responding to your post on @Perry thread. I just didn't want to blow up his thread with my questions.

Have you seen an issue with T5s from the 6 month to 12 month gap as far as PAR and spectrum? I have been changing my bulbs every 6 months because I read that the PAR and spectrum can shift after 6 months. What is your thoughts on that?

Also, If I end up going with a 96x48x24 peninsula then how many T5's would I need to cover that foot print? Would 6' bulbs be a good choice for an 8 foot tank?

 

[ScottB]

@Big E Hey Ed! I am responding to your post on @Perry thread. I just didn't want to blow up his thread with my questions.

Have you seen an issue with T5s from the 6 month to 12 month gap as far as PAR and spectrum? I have been changing my bulbs every 6 months because I read that the PAR and spectrum can shift after 6 months. What is your thoughts on that?

Also, If I end up going with a 96x48x24 peninsula then how many T5's would I need to cover that foot print? Would 6' bulbs be a good choice for an 8 foot tank?

Good question. Answers seem all over the place. I feel like I saw a BRS video suggesting they were good for much longer -- like 18 months or so. I run mine hybrid, and the LEDs do most of the lifting. Bulbs run about 6-7 hours.

 

[Perry]

Yeah Josh, when you mentioned, I thought to myself hmmm.... But didn't push back, because I known plenty who were just avid changers. I have gone as long as 18 months, no problems. Usually the corals, and in my case, silly uglies like cyano appear. But, Ed has much more in depth knowledge regarding this topic, so hopefully he chimes in.

 

[JCOLE]

Good question. Answers seem all over the place. I feel like I saw a BRS video suggesting they were good for much longer -- like 18 months or so. I run mine hybrid, and the LEDs do most of the lifting. Bulbs run about 6-7 hours.

I run some of my bulbs for 12 hours a day.....I know, call me crazy! It would be great if I could wait for 12-14 months on changing the bulbs.

 

[JCOLE]

Yeah Josh, when you mentioned, I thought to myself hmmm.... But didn't push back, because I known plenty who were just avid changers. I have gone as long as 18 months, no problems. Usually the corals, and in my case, silly uglies like cyano appear. But, Ed has much more in depth knowledge regarding this topic, so hopefully he chimes in.

Yeah I wish I had something to prove the spectrum changes, etc. I dont have a spectrometer so I change them to be safe. It just makes me feel good like changing oil on a car.

 

[JCOLE]

I ran a couple tests yesterday. I am currently trying some things out for planning purposes. I am just trying to think the options through.

I received in the Smatfarm G5 led light yesterday. Very nice light. PAR at bottom 36" was 100. 24" 200. 12" 400.

Then I fired up a 6500k 400 Watt Metal Halide. I forgot how much I loved these lights. Instantly brought me back to 2003! 36" 350 PAR. 24" 800 PAR and 12" was 1100 PAR.

 

[JCOLE]

So my PCB board came in earlier than expected. Swapped it in one of my black boxes and love it. Good color, around a 15k look at 100% on both channels. I took some PAR readings and if I don't find a better option then this is the route I will more than likely go. 2 black boxes for every 24" of tank and T5's on the outsides.

Excuse the wires. Quickly through things together.

Readings were taken directly in the middle and 100% on both channels.

36" below the light - 543 PAR

24" below - 850 PAR

12" below - 1563 PAR

 

[ScottB]

I never tried testing PAR without water.

With water, I have noticed a large difference with/without flow or surface turbulence. Brings me to question how we should be testing and comparing PAR.

 

[Big E]

@Big E Hey Ed! I am responding to your post on @Perry thread. I just didn't want to blow up his thread with my questions.

Have you seen an issue with T5s from the 6 month to 12 month gap as far as PAR and spectrum? I have been changing my bulbs every 6 months because I read that the PAR and spectrum can shift after 6 months. What is your thoughts on that?

Also, If I end up going with a 96x48x24 peninsula then how many T5's would I need to cover that foot print? Would 6' bulbs be a good choice for an 8 foot tank?

The only time I have visually seen an improvement is with my over driven bulbs. After the change out I can tell the colors look better, so from a visual perespective it's immediately noticed. Within two weeks I always get a color and growth spurt. With standard driven bulbs I don't see this but that's with the Sunpower and the active cooling. I only change out the over driven bulbs at 5-6 months. Sunpower I go at least 12.

You can definitely get over 12 months in a Sunpower or similar. BRS test had no cooling for the bulbs(they took out the plexi shied) and they got that 12-14 month data, so it's probably reasonable.

The par loss is not an issue but spectrum is and their test on the spectrum shift wasn't much. So, based on my experience and their testing I would go at least 12 months.

On this---
"Also, If I end up going with a 96x48x24 peninsula then how many T5's would I need to cover that foot print? Would 6' bulbs be a good choice for an 8 foot tank?"

No on the 6' bulbs.........you would need 4 banks of 6x54w at minimum. So four 48" 6x54w Sumpowers or similar. If you stay with that footprint on your new tank I would look for better options mainly due to the future of bulb availability. You don't want a deep sunken cost that in 5 years you have to completely overhaul your lighting.

The issue is you know MH and T5 are going to work for the acros. With the LED or some combo of LED and T5 you are going to have to experiment. I've seen some impressive tanks that had a mix of MH and LED.
LED alone, I can't get past all the shadowing and darkness.

I haven't seen anything in person that convinces that LED only is as good as a combo with T5..............it's always better if t5 is the workhorse and LED is supplementation as well. The LED as the workhorse is ok but not as good.

From a lighting perspective I think 48" width tank is going to be a headache. I think I would stick to 36" max for a new tank. It also will be a bear to maintain.........even with a peninsula design. Don't let my hangups stop you from having what you want. If this is your dream tank go for it
-------------------------------------------------

On a much smaller scale I just bought a 60x24x24 tank and I'm struggling with the same issues. If I had gone to a 48" tank I'd be more inclined to stay T5 with a few LED strips because I have all the lights currently. With this 60" length I have to buy new lights. I don't want to put up a 48" fixture and then buy something else to fill that last 12".

I'm not discounting LED only but I would have to do more research as far as coverage and number of units. I like the Mitras 7206 & Reefi duos as they have reflectors instead of lenses. This makes it an easier transition from traditional lighting as you don't have the magnifying glass bleaching effect as well as no concern for burned out acrylic lenses.

I am also considering the Orphek icons as they have now gone to glass lenses but transition is still a concern.

T5 only it's an 6 or 8x60" new fixture and hope I can still get bulbs for 10 years. This seems the easiest and what I know I'd be happy with.
------------------------------------------

It's never an easy decision but just go with your gut and what you feel you're willing to work with. You may want to check out Reebum's system. It's 36" wide with only MItras. He has a recent video showing growth and color and it looks good.

 

[JCOLE]

The only time I have visually seen an improvement is with my over driven bulbs. After the change out I can tell the colors look better, so from a visual perespective it's immediately noticed. Within two weeks I always get a color and growth spurt. With standard driven bulbs I don't see this but that's with the Sunpower and the active cooling. I only change out the over driven bulbs at 5-6 months. Sunpower I go at least 12.

You can definitely get over 12 months in a Sunpower or similar. BRS test had no cooling for the bulbs(they took out the plexi shied) and they got that 12-14 month data, so it's probably reasonable.

The par loss is not an issue but spectrum is and their test on the spectrum shift wasn't much. So, based on my experience and their testing I would go at least 12 months.

On this---
"Also, If I end up going with a 96x48x24 peninsula then how many T5's would I need to cover that foot print? Would 6' bulbs be a good choice for an 8 foot tank?"

No on the 6' bulbs.........you would need 4 banks of 6x54w at minimum. So four 48" 6x54w Sumpowers or similar. If you stay with that footprint on your new tank I would look for better options mainly due to the future of bulb availability. You don't want a deep sunken cost that in 5 years you have to completely overhaul your lighting.

The issue is you know MH and T5 are going to work for the acros. With the LED or some combo of LED and T5 you are going to have to experiment. I've seen some impressive tanks that had a mix of MH and LED.
LED alone, I can't get past all the shadowing and darkness.

I haven't seen anything in person that convinces that LED only is as good as a combo with T5..............it's always better if t5 is the workhorse and LED is supplementation as well. The LED as the workhorse is ok but not as good.

From a lighting perspective I think 48" width tank is going to be a headache. I think I would stick to 36" max for a new tank. It also will be a bear to maintain.........even with a peninsula design. Don't let my hangups stop you from having what you want. If this is your dream tank go for it
-------------------------------------------------

On a much smaller scale I just bought a 60x24x24 tank and I'm struggling with the same issues. If I had gone to a 48" tank I'd be more inclined to stay T5 with a few LED strips because I have all the lights currently. With this 60" length I have to buy new lights. I don't want to put up a 48" fixture and then buy something else to fill that last 12".

I'm not discounting LED only but I would have to do more research as far as coverage and number of units. I like the Mitras 7206 & Reefi duos as they have reflectors instead of lenses. This makes it an easier transition from traditional lighting as you don't have the magnifying glass bleaching effect as well as no concern for burned out acrylic lenses.

I am also considering the Orphek icons as they have now gone to glass lenses but transition is still a concern.

T5 only it's an 6 or 8x60" new fixture and hope I can still get bulbs for 10 years. This seems the easiest and what I know I'd be happy with.
------------------------------------------

It's never an easy decision but just go with your gut and what you feel you're willing to work with. You may want to check out Reebum's system. It's 36" wide with only MItras. He has a recent video showing growth and color and it looks good.

Wow, thanks for all of the information Ed!

I cannot remember if we discussed this before but I am running the LET retrofit kits. I believe you said these are the same ballasts used in the Sunpower fixtures, correct? If so, then they are not overdriven, correct?

Right now my 6 bulbs are mounted in my canopy with no cooling available. I have thought about installing a fan to blow down the bulbs. I don't have any heat issues but do you think this would help extend the life of the bulbs?

I have decided to go 3' instead of 4' now. Just makes more sense logistically and practical for the current layout of my room. It will be a peninsula and my plan is to leave at least leave 6" from the rock work to the tank on all sides. So at 3' wide minus the 6" on both sides will leave me with a 24" area of rock to light. I am currently thinking of two lighting scenarios.

1. Go with the LET retrofit kits as I already have 3 of those kits on my current tank. The reflectors on those are 3" wide. 8 bulbs would put the light at 24" wide. I would do 8 bulbs up front and 8 bulbs in the back. If I go 8' then I will add 8 36" bulbs in the back and if 10' then I will add 8 60" bulbs to the back. Total of 16 bulbs. Tank will be 24" deep as well.

2. Option 2 would be to do black box LED's with the SBREEF PCB spectrum with T5 supplementation. See picture below. I am thinking of adding 2 T5's on the outside, then a row of black boxes, then 2 T5's in the middle, another row of black boxes and 2 T5's on the outside. With the reflector and black box dimensions, it will come out around 35" which covers the entire width.

Not to scale but it should do.. Also, was thinking of making all T5's a mix of Aquablue/Coral+. Let the T5's give off the white spectrum and let the black boxes give more of the blues?

I have seen the Mitras and they look very impressive! The only thing not impressive is the cost for the Mitras to light a tank this size. I would probably spend more on lights than the whole tank itself. Not saying that is not an option. It just won't happen this year. Down the road then I will more than likely overhaul the whole lighting system.

My gut says to go with option two only because I have 80% of the lighting currently. I would only need to pick up 4 black boxes, change out the PCB's, and add the remaining T5's. I would say less than $1000 and I feel with that option it would give me complete coverage throughout the entire tank.

What are your thoughts on this?

 

[JCOLE]

I spoke with Tulio from Reefbrite tonight. After talking it out with him I think I am going to go with 3 or 4 of their Metal halide XHO pendants.

 

[KevinC]

Wow, thanks for all of the information Ed!

I cannot remember if we discussed this before but I am running the LET retrofit kits. I believe you said these are the same ballasts used in the Sunpower fixtures, correct? If so, then they are not overdriven, correct?

Right now my 6 bulbs are mounted in my canopy with no cooling available. I have thought about installing a fan to blow down the bulbs. I don't have any heat issues but do you think this would help extend the life of the bulbs?

I have decided to go 3' instead of 4' now. Just makes more sense logistically and practical for the current layout of my room. It will be a peninsula and my plan is to leave at least leave 6" from the rock work to the tank on all sides. So at 3' wide minus the 6" on both sides will leave me with a 24" area of rock to light. I am currently thinking of two lighting scenarios.

1. Go with the LET retrofit kits as I already have 3 of those kits on my current tank. The reflectors on those are 3" wide. 8 bulbs would put the light at 24" wide. I would do 8 bulbs up front and 8 bulbs in the back. If I go 8' then I will add 8 36" bulbs in the back and if 10' then I will add 8 60" bulbs to the back. Total of 16 bulbs. Tank will be 24" deep as well.

2. Option 2 would be to do black box LED's with the SBREEF PCB spectrum with T5 supplementation. See picture below. I am thinking of adding 2 T5's on the outside, then a row of black boxes, then 2 T5's in the middle, another row of black boxes and 2 T5's on the outside. With the reflector and black box dimensions, it will come out around 35" which covers the entire width.

Not to scale but it should do.. Also, was thinking of making all T5's a mix of Aquablue/Coral+. Let the T5's give off the white spectrum and let the black boxes give more of the blues?

I have seen the Mitras and they look very impressive! The only thing not impressive is the cost for the Mitras to light a tank this size. I would probably spend more on lights than the whole tank itself. Not saying that is not an option. It just won't happen this year. Down the road then I will more than likely overhaul the whole lighting system.

My gut says to go with option two only because I have 80% of the lighting currently. I would only need to pick up 4 black boxes, change out the PCB's, and add the remaining T5's. I would say less than $1000 and I feel with that option it would give me complete coverage throughout the entire tank.

What are your thoughts on this?

i suggest you take a look at tusi system, there's a whole article on it. Amazing system working on MH/T5 and led strips. I do believe both of you have similar tank size?

 

[Big E]

I spoke with Tulio from Reefbrite tonight. After talking it out with him I think I am going to go with 3 or 4 of their Metal halide XHO pendants.

If your sold on this option, which I think is great, I won't go into a long reply on your questions on your other post. My main question is coverage. Imo this is the #1 point you want to consider. It's two fold...........360 degree coverage for the acros and you also want the visual pop from the corals to your eyes. So you need a wide angle from the outside in or the corals grow straight up toward the lights and from your view you end up seeing a lot of the backside of the acro which is just tan. What this means is you want a lot of reflection from your lights to go directly from the corals to your eyes for the best viewing pleasure.

Another question is how do you feel about bulb replacement? MH bulbs are getting less and less available. A major blow would be if the 250w Radium suddenly is off the market. This would be what I would pick bulb wise.

Those pendants are pricey..........a little diy with the Ali express bars are a fraction of the cost. Your talking about the same performance and saving some $. These companies are charging a premium for a few brackets which is something you can do on your own. 1.5x1.5" t-slot aluminum is 56 cents an inch.

1.5" X 1.5" Lite T-Slotted Aluminum Framing Extrusion - Alufab Inc.

Aluminum extruded bar for structural framing systems. 1.5″ X 1.5″ Lite T-Slotted Aluminum Framing Extrusion Price is $0.56 per inch. Need more than 8 feet? Please contact us to order.

www.alufabinc.com

You can probably get something even lighter for .35 cents an inch as the pendants aren't heavy.

This is where Tidal Gardens was getting his aluminum for light frames.

The above ideas would probably save you major $. Just buy the Reebrite pendants and do the rest on your own. It's what I would do and I'm not a good diy guy, so I know anyone could do this if I can.

 

[JCOLE]

If your sold on this option, which I think is great, I won't go into a long reply on your questions on your other post. My main question is coverage. Imo this is the #1 point you want to consider. It's two fold...........360 degree coverage for the acros and you also want the visual pop from the corals to your eyes. So you need a wide angle from the outside in or the corals grow straight up toward the lights and from your view you end up seeing a lot of the backside of the acro which is just tan. What this means is you want a lot of reflection from your lights to go directly from the corals to your eyes for the best viewing pleasure.

Another question is how do you feel about bulb replacement? MH bulbs are getting less and less available. A major blow would be if the 250w Radium suddenly is off the market. This would be what I would pick bulb wise.

Those pendants are pricey..........a little diy with the Ali express bars are a fraction of the cost. Your talking about the same performance and saving some $. These companies are charging a premium for a few brackets which is something you can do on your own. 1.5x1.5" t-slot aluminum is 56 cents an inch.

1.5" X 1.5" Lite T-Slotted Aluminum Framing Extrusion - Alufab Inc.

Aluminum extruded bar for structural framing systems. 1.5″ X 1.5″ Lite T-Slotted Aluminum Framing Extrusion Price is $0.56 per inch. Need more than 8 feet? Please contact us to order.

www.alufabinc.com

You can probably get something even lighter for .35 cents an inch as the pendants aren't heavy.

This is where Tidal Gardens was getting his aluminum for light frames.

The above ideas would probably save you major $. Just buy the Reebrite pendants and do the rest on your own. It's what I would do and I'm not a good diy guy, so I know anyone could do this if I can.

I am not 100% sold on the Reefbrites but it is a very good contender right now. I would love to throw Halides in the mix and I am looking at the Reefbrites or the Hamilton Cozumel Sun pendants. I figure 4 of those pendants should cover an 8' tank with no problem. I will either go Halide/T5 combo or the combo of black box LED's/T5 like shown above. If I go with the layout I showed in the picture then do you see any issues or concerns with that?

As far as bulb replacement, yes, that is the main concern for me right now with Halides. I don't want to invest $2k in Halide Pendants and not be able to get bulbs in a year or so. However, I spoke with Tullio and he said that Metal Halide isn't going anywhere and they have an entire warehouse of bulbs. If I do go the halide route then once I find the right bulb I want then my plan is to order at least 4-5 years' worth of bulbs. If bulbs are unavailable in 4-5 years then I will look at changing them out. If I get 4-5 years' worth out of the lights then it won't be bad. I just don't want to change everything out in a year.

I was looking at making a light frame to hold the pendants or black boxes if I go that route. Thank you for that info. Yes, it won't be bad to make it myself.

 

[JCOLE]

 

[JCOLE]

Vivids Confetti starting to join the party

 

[Bpb]

Vivids Confetti starting to join the party

Outstanding photo. Specimen looks incredibly healthy as well

 

[JCOLE]

Outstanding photo. Specimen looks incredibly healthy as well

Thank you! It sat dormant for 6 months until I got my pH corrected. It's finally starting to grow. Looking forward to this one.

 

[JCOLE]

I use kalk through my top off and I wanted to keep track of how much kalk I am dosing throughout the day. Apex will log the on and off event with times but it doesn't add the time up for you. My top off usually runs 800-900 times a day. It would take all day to add up the times. I decided to make my own totalizer. Turned out exactly as expected. You could use this for anything you want to see the total time ran.

The housing isn't pretty but it gets the job done

Here is the video of it running. Excuse the wires and when I say counting down I mean counting up

 

[Sean Clark]

I use kalk through my top off and I wanted to keep track of how much kalk I am dosing throughout the day. Apex will log the on and off event with times but it doesn't add the time up for you. My top off usually runs 800-900 times a day. It would take all day to add up the times. I decided to make my own totalizer. Turned out exactly as expected. You could use this for anything you want to see the total time ran.

The housing isn't pretty but it gets the job done

Here is the video of it running. Excuse the wires and when I say counting down I mean counting up

Clever solution.