Kalk or all for reef?

[Murica]

I use all for reef and really like it because of the trace elements it contains, which helps reduce my needs for water changes.

Simple question=simple answer

 

[HBtank]

I used the powdered ALL for Reef for while but as others have said had some issues with imbalance due to having to dose Nitrate which increased my Alkalinity, so I was always having to correct my Calcium, Magnesium and Trace Elements. Have gone onto Reef Zelements A + B which I dose less Part A (Alk) due to the Nitrate dosing bumping it up; so far so good.

Good point, I have similar issues with calcium nitrate. I don’t think any “one part” solution will ever work perfectly long term.

But I think you can achieve the same thing with any dosing system, for instance control AFR dosing baeed on calcium/magnesium instead of alkalinity and supplement balling part B as needed if kH is still low.

 

[TheyGaveItToMe]

Why did you ignore my fundamental point?

Do you not understand how magnesium works in balancing calcium and alkalinity?

Do you not under stand that Kalkwasser doesn't supply any additional magnesium. Are we just going to ignore the OP's original question and continue to build some kind of strawman?

The entire post is literally about the difference between dosing Kalkwasser(calcium hydroxide) and All For Reef. And, in the OP's tank, which is a 15 gallon, All For Reef is a good choice. AFR was designed to maintain Calcium and Alkalinity and provide some trace elements in smaller aquariums between water changes.

His question was literally; Kalk, which is a one part calcium and alkalinity vs AFR, which is one part calcium and alkalinity and trace elements.

 

[HBtank]

Do you not under stand that Kalkwasser doesn't supply any additional magnesium. Are we just going to ignore the OP's original question and continue to build some kind of strawman?

The entire post is literally about the difference between dosing Kalkwasser(calcium hydroxide) and All For Reef. And, in the OP's tank, which is a 15 gallon, All For Reef is a good choice. AFR was designed to maintain Calcium and Alkalinity and provide some trace elements in smaller aquariums between water changes.

His question was literally; Kalk, which is a one part calcium and alkalinity vs AFR, which is one part calcium and alkalinity and trace elements.

You said

I don't agree. Kalk is a one part Calcium and Alkalinity; AFR is a one part Calcium, Alkalinity, and trace elements. They use different delivery methods to achieve the same results.

What are you trying to claim is the difference?

You were disagreeing with someone recommending more research, which was a good suggestion. If we are concerned about the OP. Just dosing something without understanding the basics, which is apparent, is a bad idea.

Kalk is typically not used by any demanding tanks other than supplementation in addition to other methods, specifically to raise pH (while adding alkalinity and calcium). It often isn’t possible to add it in sufficient quantities via ATO, and it lacks magnesium which is a core element, and can actually precipitate it. That said, it can be a good starting point, as long as someone understands the others aspects of dosing, like magnesium.

Since you still do not seem to understand that magnesium is not a “trace element” and are fixated on alkalinity and calcium, here is some reading material for you.

https://reefkeeping.com/issues/2006-06/rhf/index.php

 

[TheyGaveItToMe]

You said


You were disagreeing with someone recommending more research, which was a good suggestion. If we are concerned about the species of the OP. Just dosing something without understanding the basics, is a bad idea.

Kalk is typically not used by any demanding tanks other than supplementation in addition to other methods, specifically to raise pH (while adding alkalinity and calcium). It often isn’t possible to add it in sufficient quantities via ATO, and it lacks magnesium which is a core element, and can actually precipitate it.

Since you still do not seem to understand that magnesium is not a “trace element” and are fixated on alkalinity and calcium, here is some reading material for you.

https://reefkeeping.com/issues/2006-06/rhf/index.php

You can keep your 14 year old reading material.

And, you are not going to give up on this strawman argument are you?

 

[GARRIGA]

My approach is going to be AFR to satisfy calcium requirements and kalk to raise ph. Ph first. Then supplement for calcium, if needed. Supplement for alk, if needed. ICP will solve additional trace needed and testing will tell me how much additional magnesium, if needed.

Main benefit I find with AFR being it is very concentrated and no additional sodium. Latter also a benefit of kalk. Plan is zero WC or very minimal.

Haven’t used kalk in 30 years and just started using a slurry last night. Not going as expected but fine tuning. Ph I believe the main driver of how to deploy both.

 

[HBtank]

You can keep your 14 year old reading material.

I figured you may need to start at the beginning based on the content of your posts *shrug*

 

[TheyGaveItToMe]

My approach is going to be AFR to satisfy calcium requirements and kalk to raise ph. Ph first. Then supplement for calcium, if needed. Supplement for alk, if needed. ICP will solve additional trace needed and testing will tell me how much additional magnesium, if needed.

Main benefit I find with AFR being it is very concentrated and no additional sodium. Latter also a benefit of kalk. Plan is zero WC or very minimal.

Haven’t used kalk in 30 years and just started using a slurry last night. Not going as expected but fine tuning. Ph I believe the main driver of how to deploy both.

No water changes and you will run into the exact problems the other members are talking about, that are a negative of using AFR.

 

[HBtank]

My approach is going to be AFR to satisfy calcium requirements and kalk to raise ph. Ph first. Then supplement for calcium, if needed. Supplement for alk, if needed. ICP will solve additional trace needed and testing will tell me how much additional magnesium, if needed.

Main benefit I find with AFR being it is very concentrated and no additional sodium. Latter also a benefit of kalk. Plan is zero WC or very minimal.

Haven’t used kalk in 30 years and just started using a slurry last night. Not going as expected but fine tuning. Ph I believe the main driver of how to deploy both.

Yeah, the lack of sodium and attempting to reduce (or eliminate) the need for water changes is a goal I have too, after using standard 2-part for so many years.

 

[GARRIGA]

No water changes and you will run into the exact problems the other members are talking about, that are a negative of using AFR.

Going to need to be more exact on exactly what negative problems.

Current experimental tank a year plus without a WC change did this in the 90s and 80s, too.

All fish only plus inverts and we didn’t have ICP testing to determine trace imbalance. Something that can be solved now and only issue I currently foresee other than chemical warfare for which I’m still researching a solution.

Best to always give clear and concise reasons vs just vague comments because the latter provides zero contribution to any discussion.

 

[GARRIGA]

Yeah, the lack of sodium and attempting to reduce (or eliminate) the need for water changes is a goal I have too, after using standard 2-part for so many years.

Researching ozone as a solution to chemical warfare as that’s the only issue I see now from zero WC. Outside of the fact alk remains stabile because carbon dosing returns what was removed during nitrification but latter I will solve once ph stabilizes above 8 when I finally add organisms that consume it. Coralline will be my savior. Every approach has its issues. Solution is to tune for that issue.

 

[HBtank]

Going to need to be more exact on exactly what negative problems.

Current experimental tank a year plus without a WC change did this in the 90s and 80s, too.

All fish only plus inverts and we didn’t have ICP testing to determine trace imbalance. Something that can be solved now and only issue I currently foresee other than chemical warfare for which I’m still researching a solution.

Best to always give cheat and concise reasons vs just vague comments because the latter provides zero contribution to any discussion.

I am guessing he is implying that AFR can cause trace element imbalances, but I don’t see how that is relevant as any zero WC system will likely employ ICP and adjust as needed.

In my case I have a trace element deficient since I dose calcium nitrate, so I have to supplement anyway (just rather not have like 8 dosers lol), hence liking AFR and a few of TM’s other products.

Researching ozone as a solution to chemical warfare as that’s the only issue I see now from zero WC. Outside of the fact alk remains stabile because carbon dosing returns what was removed during nitrification but latter I will solve once ph stabilizes above 8 when I finally add organisms that consume it. Coralline will be my savior. Every approach has its issues. Solution is to tune for that issue.

I like to think activated carbon can cover the random chemical issues. I am trying to run that and things like GFO less, but still see myself always running carbon fairly regularly,

 

[GARRIGA]

I am guessing he is implying that AFR can cause trace element imbalances, but I don’t see how that is relevant as any zero WC system will likely employ ICP and adjust as needed.

In my case I have a trace element deficient since I dose calcium nitrate, so I have to supplement anyway (just rather not have like 8 dosers lol), hence liking AFR and a few of TM’s other products.


I like to think activated carbon can cover the random chemical issues. I am trying to run that and things like GFO less, but still see myself always running carbon fairly regularly,

My assumption was carbon solved it as well but based on discussion on a zero WC thread it seemed we don’t know all contaminants and an argument for why WC should continue to exist. Had to go back into memory just to try and recall what I had learned about ozone but luckily lots more known now and one of those being it possibly removes that which corals produce more effectively based on the clarification of what is visually seen produced by corals. Still anecdotal but so is much of what we do.

What I recall the most was the consequences of deploying ozone. That’s always rubbed me the wrong way and now I’m finding out it might actually suppress skimmer performance but that might be because ozone is very effective at destroying the chemical compound of what skimmers resolve. Wet skimming a solution along with a reactor with latter likely the approach I’ll take if that path pursued. Not sure though I’m going to enjoy the scent of lightning in the room

 

[KStatefan]

So I do wanna start dosing and I know I will have to eventually so I was wondering what would be the better pick? Kalk or all for reef? Does all for reef raise alk, calcium, and trace elements?

Back to the Op original question

In my opinion start with kalk using a dosing pump until that method does not meet the demands.

 

[Reefahholic]

I have only seen deficits really reported with long term use based on ICP testing, and that is why they had to adjust the formula (increased A- elements) recently.

You can use their A- and K+ to adjust as needed. Or use their balling solutions to adjust core parameters. Also there is guidance on controlling dosing with alkalinity versus calcium testing, as tanks seem to land on one side or the other.

Point being if you like control and want to be more rigorous on testing individual parameters or ICP testing, you can tweak it as needed.

You cannot tweak it enough. Eventually one or two elements will become depleted or elevated. I’ve seen it over and over again. You need to be in control of your own elements if you want precision. When you let somebody else dictate trace element ratios for your reef and 100K other tank’s, there is no way that all these tanks will magically fall in line with those predetermined ratios.

Many metallic trace elements are in the ultra trace concentration range, and it’s impossible to hit those targets consistently with some random ratio. You have to precisely dose and test to get into that conversation.

 

[Reefahholic]

I have had a negative experience! Dosing A4R and ICP came back with low Magnesium, Boron and ZERO Iodine and Molybdenum.

I see a lot of elements come back depleted. Some elements come back elevated especially in a new tank that isn’t growing.

All For Reef has added trace elements that might prolong the time between water changes but in my experience, it’s not at all enough to replace them.

100% correct. Especially in a fast growing Acropora system.

So Kalk raises PH and calcium but AFR raises alk, calcium, but also trace elements?

Kalk raise’s pH, ALK, and CAL.

 

[Alec Berger]

To the OP, I was in a similar situation about a year ago and decided to go with the All For Reef. What inevitably made my decision easier was the simplicity of All For Reef. I just had one doser set up and dropped the end of the dosing line directly into the bottle. After I got things dialed in (which can take some time due to the nature of calcium formate) it was set and forget. I think I capped out at dosing about 15 ml daily in a 50 gallon tank, so a 1L bottle would last me about two months.

I did some rough math at the time and to get comparable results with Kalk I would have had to mix up a 2.5 gallon or 5 gallon jug at least twice a month. In the end, that was just more chores that I didn't want to do. Another downside for Kalk was the possibility of nuking your tank overnight if you overdose on accident. In the end, it was just way too much risk for what I wanted.

You don't get a PH boost from All For Reef and there are ways to overcome some the the disadvantages of Kalkwasser. You will still need to do water changes to help balance everything and an occasional ICP test wouldn't hurt. I made the decision to try a 1L bottle to see how I liked it. It worked really well, so I kept with it.

 

[Reefahholic]

No water changes and you will run into the exact problems the other members are talking about, that are a negative of using AFR.

Exactly.

Plan is zero WC or very minimal.

My approach is going to be AFR to satisfy calcium requirements and kalk to raise ph.

You will need additional trace elements on hand. AFR will not keep up.

 

[Dav2996]

For kalk I've seen people run it in atos but also dripping it. What method do you guys prefer

Dosing pump because less stuff to clean and less stuff to clog

 

[Reefahholic]

You will still need to do water changes to help balance everything and an occasional ICP test wouldn't hurt.

That would be really smart.