Kalk or all for reef?

[dmiki]

Yeah, I do think that. I also think the internet is full of lies and people who like to argue for the sake of nothing. Not to forget, no one was talking about TM salt until you brought it up.

Now we getting somewhere, "I also think the internet is full of lies". Yes it is, because people want to promote products, for their own reasons, I did not promote anything. If you read carefully you would have seen that I deliberately did not give the name of my old salt. So those promoters/people will not accept other peoples experiences. Also I did mention the salt because it was not 7-8dKH as they stated, but at 6.5 or a little bit lower. So I wanted to dose with A4R and get the Alk up. after several weeks Alk still below 7 and worse with both products I still had 0 Iodine and Molybdenum. How can that be? Next quote, "people who like to argue for the sake of nothing", I did not see any arguments from you except that I was dosing too low. I follow their mixing instruction (37-40gm, I was mixing 39 gm) I accepted that I probably got a bad batch of salt and that A4R did not help. You should accept that that is my experience with this product. As I accepted some time ago that there are no "miracle" products and if you get an advantage in one particular part of our wonderfully complex marine aquarium chemistry, there will be a disadvantage with the same product down the road.

 

[TheyGaveItToMe]

Now we getting somewhere, "I also think the internet is full of lies". Yes it is, because people want to promote products, for their own reasons, I did not promote anything. If you read carefully you would have seen that I deliberately did not give the name of my old salt. So those promoters/people will not accept other peoples experiences. Also I did mention the salt because it was not 7-8dKH as they stated, but at 6.5 or a little bit lower. So I wanted to dose with A4R and get the Alk up. after several weeks Alk still below 7 and worse with both products I still had 0 Iodine and Molybdenum. How can that be? Next quote, "people who like to argue for the sake of nothing", I did not see any arguments from you except that I was dosing too low. I follow their mixing instruction (37-40gm, I was mixing 39 gm) I accepted that I probably got a bad batch of salt and that A4R did not help. You should accept that that is my experience with this product. As I accepted some time ago that there are no "miracle" products and if you get an advantage in one particular part of our wonderfully complex marine aquarium chemistry, there will be a disadvantage with the same product down the road.

Well you definitely were mixing it too low. Their instructions are 160 grams.

 

[dmiki]

Well you definitely were mixing it too low. Their instructions are 160 grams.

I was talking about the salt mix, ergo 6.5dKH with 39gm.....and then came the A4R....and zero Iodine and Molybdenum

 

[TheyGaveItToMe]

I was talking about the salt mix, ergo 6.5dKH with 39gm.....and then came the A4R....and zero Iodine and Molybdenum

39gm gives you a salinity of 34 PPT, so that would definitely give you low Alkalinity. And, the instructions for AFR say to correct low Alkalinity with TM balling part B; before dosing AFR. So yeah definitely did it wrong.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley Verified Community Expert]

See video posted further up in the thread, video from Lou Ekus stream. The whole video, not the 30 second clip edited out of context.

Sorry, I don't watch long videos to find information you could just present yourself when asked why you believed something.

IMO, if tropic marin does not provide it on their web site or product use descriptions, it is incorrect to claim one "must" do water changes to use AFR.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley Verified Community Expert]

Lou Ekus is a bio chemist and the director of US Operations for Tropic Marin. I think that is who I will listen to about how to properly use All For Reef.

A quick Google search can prevented looking foolish.

Yes, it certainly can.

Lou and I frequently discuss topics related to All For Reef and other Tropic Marin products. You cna read many of them yourself. Our points of disagreement are typically quite minor and somewhat esoteric (such as whether Balling and ESV two part accomplish the same things overall or not with respect to other ions than calcium and alk).

 

[TheyGaveItToMe]

Sorry, I don't watch long videos to find information you could just present yourself when asked why you believed something.

IMO, if tropic marin does not provide it on their web site or product use descriptions, it is incorrect to claim one "must" do water changes to use AFR.

You asked why, I told you why. Sorry, If you needed a more detailed explanation.

Yeah, that's cool. I have no doubt you are a smart guy. But, the people who make the stuff say otherwise.

 

[TheyGaveItToMe]

Yes, it certainly can.

Lou and I frequently discuss topics related to All For Reef and other Tropic Marin products. You cna read many of them yourself. Our points of disagreement are typically quite minor and somewhat esoteric (such as whether Balling and ESV two part accomplish the same things overall or not with respect to other ions than calcium and alk).

Next time you speak, you should ask him why they don't mention that AFR is designed for nano tanks that do periodically water changes on the label or website.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley Verified Community Expert]

You asked why, I told you why. Sorry, If you needed a more detailed explanation.

Yeah, that's cool. I have no doubt you are a smart guy. But, the people who make the stuff say otherwise.

When explicitly asked whether water changes are needed when using all for reef, this is what Lou said. Note the answer applies equally to ALL methods and is not a specific requirement when using All for Reef.

Question:

@Lou Ekus I was wondering if you can spare a few minutes of your time to share your thoughts about water changes while using All-for-reef.

Lou’s answer:

My opinion on water changes may differ from some. In fact, if you ask 12 people what they think of water changes, you will probably get 15 different answers!

Mine is this... I don't believe that ICP results, trace element concentrations and nutrient concentrations, are the ONLY reason to do water changes. Always, 100% of the time, on my systems, whenever a water change was done, the animals all looked happier the next day! Even when I could find NO apparent measurable difference between the pre and post water change water. I have a theory, of course one that cannot be backed up yet by some concrete scientific explanation, that doing a water change is a lot like giving your corals a "breadth of fresh air". I believe there are actual physical factors, that we cannot yet measure, that come into play when you have added new, clean, freshly made salt water to a closed system that the animals have been living in. I can't explain this 100%. But I watched it happen time after time with NO variation. There are still many things in reef keeping that we cannot fully explain. I believe this is one of them.

So I am a fan of periodic water changes. I am not one of these folks who thinks you need to do 10-20% strictly, every 2 to 4 weeks under penalty of torture! But I do believe that a "button" that can be pushed, that ALWAYS makes your animals look happier, should be pushed once in a while. They are telling that by the way they respond!

I have probably said a number of things that will be jumped on in this post. So I will say this... this is just my opinion and the advice that I have given, with much success, for many years. If you want to use a different approach, go ahead, it will probably work great. But you asked, so I'm tellin' !!!

Tropic Marin All-For-Reef: Any downsides to it?

Yes you are correct, looking more into it, apparently it’s because calcium test kits are more reliable? (Not in my experience they are far less accurate), they say you can use either but to adjust based on calcium. To be fair, their instructions are a little mixed up, as they start by saying...

www.reef2reef.com

 

[TheyGaveItToMe]

When explicitly asked whether water changes are needed when using all for reef, this is what Lou said. Note the answer applies equally to ALL methods and is not a specific requirement when using All for Reef.

Question:

@Lou Ekus I was wondering if you can spare a few minutes of your time to share your thoughts about water changes while using All-for-reef.

Lou’s answer:

My opinion on water changes may differ from some. In fact, if you ask 12 people what they think of water changes, you will probably get 15 different answers!

Mine is this... I don't believe that ICP results, trace element concentrations and nutrient concentrations, are the ONLY reason to do water changes. Always, 100% of the time, on my systems, whenever a water change was done, the animals all looked happier the next day! Even when I could find NO apparent measurable difference between the pre and post water change water. I have a theory, of course one that cannot be backed up yet by some concrete scientific explanation, that doing a water change is a lot like giving your corals a "breadth of fresh air". I believe there are actual physical factors, that we cannot yet measure, that come into play when you have added new, clean, freshly made salt water to a closed system that the animals have been living in. I can't explain this 100%. But I watched it happen time after time with NO variation. There are still many things in reef keeping that we cannot fully explain. I believe this is one of them.

So I am a fan of periodic water changes. I am not one of these folks who thinks you need to do 10-20% strictly, every 2 to 4 weeks under penalty of torture! But I do believe that a "button" that can be pushed, that ALWAYS makes your animals look happier, should be pushed once in a while. They are telling that by the way they respond!

I have probably said a number of things that will be jumped on in this post. So I will say this... this is just my opinion and the advice that I have given, with much success, for many years. If you want to use a different approach, go ahead, it will probably work great. But you asked, so I'm tellin' !!!

Tropic Marin All-For-Reef: Any downsides to it?

Yes you are correct, looking more into it, apparently it’s because calcium test kits are more reliable? (Not in my experience they are far less accurate), they say you can use either but to adjust based on calcium. To be fair, their instructions are a little mixed up, as they start by saying...

www.reef2reef.com

That's awesome. I appreciate you taking the time to get that answer.

I am a idiot, so I just read instructions and follow manufactures recommendation. This is more than your hobby, I don't have the same level of passion.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley Verified Community Expert]

That's awesome. I appreciate you taking the time to get that answer.

I am a idiot, so I just read instructions and follow manufactures recommendation. This is more than your hobby, I don't have the same level of passion.

Just to clarify, it’s not a question I asked, it’s a question I remembered being asked in my reef chemistry forum (the entire thread is linked in my post above).

 

[TheyGaveItToMe]

Just to clarify, it’s not a question I asked, it’s a question I remembered being asked in my reef chemistry forum (the entire thread is linked in my post above).

Yeah, when I said I'm an idiot, I was being coy. I saw the hyperlink.

In the stream, he said you need the water changes to correct the fact fixed ratios can't regulate parameters in every single system. And, the water changes correct parameters in situations where trace elements are either under or overdose.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley Verified Community Expert]

Yeah, when I said I'm an idiot, I was being coy. I saw the hyperlink.

In the stream, he said you need the water changes to correct the fact fixed ratios can't regulate parameters in every single system. And, the water changes correct parameters in situations where trace elements are either under or overdose.

yes, that’s a fine reason to do water changes, although they may not always solve the issues unless you select a salt mix that is suited to making that correction.

For example, I used only kalkwasser for 20 years, and long term use of it to maintain alk will slowly raise calcium. For that reason I used a low calcium mix for water changes to help offset it. Calcium stabilized higher than the salt mix but at a still acceptable level. If I had used a higher calcium mix the level would likely be too high.

 

[Reefahholic]

Last sentence. First paragraph.

I see what you were trying to say. I think you meant to say that ICP will indicate if additional trace elements are needed.

 

[Reefahholic]

yes, that’s a fine reason to do water changes, although they may not always solve the issues unless you select a salt mix that is suited to making that correction.

Exactly. As you already know it’s also going to depend on volume and frequency. A lot of reefers forget to consider that.

 

[GARRIGA]

I see what you were trying to say. I think you meant to say that ICP will indicate if additional trace elements are needed.

I didn't mean to say. I actually said that. Perhaps now we are both on the same page.

 

[jhadaway]

I have a waterbox100.3. I dosed alk and tested added everything else seperately. When i saw a4r i thought there was no way it could do everything. Now i have a kamora pump my profilux mini that doses 6 times a day. I buy the a4r powder and mix a gallon at a time. I test once a week. Everything else falls in line with the alk test every time. The little extra cost is worth not having to have multiple dosing pumps and mixes. Now if i had a beast of a tank things would be different but for my tank its a joke how easy this stuff is. I love it.

 

[Reefahholic]

I didn't mean to say. I actually said that. Perhaps now we are both on the same page.

Ok, but you haven’t identified the trace elements you’ll be supplementing if needed. Your plan sounds a little incomplete, and depending on which ICP company you use, they may not be able to “accurately detect” certain elements such as Iron, Cobalt, Chrome, Manganese, Selenium, Vanadium, etc. because their LLOD is not trustworthy.

 

[Reefahholic]

I’ve been dozing AFR on my 3’ SPS tank and nothing bad has come from it so far. My trace elements all stay rather high, I believe last time I checked my Mg was 1600.

Magnesium isn’t a trace element.

 

[Reefahholic]

Problem with all for reef is.

1. if your calcium is low and alkalinity is high dosing more all for reef won’t fix it will make it worse if the alkalinity is too high causing a swing.

2. same with the opposite. You can’t control each parameter individually to keep the parameters perfect.

I’m glad that you’ve noticed this issue. You must have a few years of reefing under your belt.

It’s really mind boggling that some reefers cannot see this especially with all the monitoring we have available today.