Kalk or all for reef?

[InactiveAcct]

I’ve used A4R for about 2.5 years and I love it. In that time my montipora has gone from 3/4” frags to a nuisance that grows too fast. I haven’t used with acros, although I just added my first acro. Some people dislike how there is lag between adding it and seeing the instant alk change in a water test. I actually like the lag, I always just dose by hand and don’t worry about doing too much too fast.

 

[Reefahholic]

No clue. Why I'll be using ICP to supplement.

Are you taking about using the ICP company for their preferred elements.?

 

[Reefahholic]

See video posted further up in the thread, video from Lou Ekus stream. The whole video, not the 30 second clip edited out of context.

Quit saying it is edited out of context, because it’s not.

AFR is a solution with Calcium, Alkalinity, Magnesium, and also contains some trace elements. Tropic Marin has predetermined the ratios for each element they put into that bottle.

You cannot change the ratio’s. Lou Ekus explained in detail about the problem of predetermined ratios in the video. Respectfully, you dismissed the facts and refused to acknowledge it, and then called Lou Ekus a liar only because you didn’t want to admit you’re wrong.

I will link the video again, and remember these are the words of Lou Ekus (not mine) who is the main promoter of Dr Balling’s product. If you disagree with what he says, then you’re obviously ignoring the facts.

 

[Reefahholic]

Next time you speak, you should ask him why they don't mention that AFR is designed for nano tanks that do periodically water changes on the label or website.

Or maybe ask why K+ Elements has no K.

 

[EeyoreIsMySpiritAnimal]

I also think the internet is full of ... people who like to argue for the sake of nothing.

Like you're doing on this thread?

 

[Spare time]

Zoanthids, don't consume calcium... Because they don't have a skeleton, What else?

I think they use some in their basic muscle but not anything comparable to the consumption stony coral or anything like that.

 

[Reefahholic]

Zoanthids, don't consume calcium... Because they don't have a skeleton, What else?

I think they use some in their basic muscle but not anything comparable to the consumption stony coral or anything like that.

I believe calcium is important for biological processes wether they use it directly to build a skeletal structure or not.

 

[Spare time]

I believe calcium is important for biological processes wether they use it directly to build a skeletal structure or not.

Yeah its used in muscles and in neurons though I am not sure if corals have the same process (I would assume so)

 

[TheyGaveItToMe]

Quit saying it is edited out of context, because it’s not.

AFR is a solution with Calcium, Alkalinity, Magnesium, and also contains some trace elements. Tropic Marin has predetermined the ratios for each element they put into that bottle.

You cannot change the ratio’s. Lou Ekus explained in detail about the problem of predetermined ratios in the video. Respectfully, you dismissed the facts and refused to acknowledge it, and then called Lou Ekus a liar only because you didn’t want to admit you’re wrong.

I will link the video again, and remember these are the words of Lou Ekus (not mine) who is the main promoter of Dr Balling’s product. If you disagree with what he says, then you’re obviously ignoring the facts.

Are you just stuck...

They both maintain Alkalinity and Calcium. AFR has the added benefit of containing magnesium and trace elements at the same rate they are consumed in ration with Alkalinity and Calcium. But the main purpose of AFR is alkalinity and calcium dosing. And, you dang sure wouldn't dose both AFR and Kalk.

You are posting 30 seconds of a one hour conversation. In which he is explaining why you need to do water changes periodically when using AFR. Because magnesium consumption does not correlate with calcification only.

I'll link the rest of the discussion so anyone who cares can see what you are trying to do. Your clip is from around the 10 minute mark.

 

[Roli's Reef Ranch]

The results speak for themselves. Find a user that has had a negative experience using AFR.

AFR is legit. Too many Reef Trolls hangin' out on this thread. Kalk is also legit. I use both.

 

[i cant think]

Magnesium isn’t a trace element.

Sorry, mixed up trace with Magnesium and Calcium - I was just waking up when I wrote that. I’m pretty sure I meant ‘Main’ or ‘key’ elements.

 

[TheyGaveItToMe]

Like you're doing on this thread?

Hello pot, my name is kettle.

 

[GARRIGA]

Ok, but you haven’t identified the trace elements you’ll be supplementing if needed. Your plan sounds a little incomplete, and depending on which ICP company you use, they may not be able to “accurately detect” certain elements such as Iron, Cobalt, Chrome, Manganese, Selenium, Vanadium, etc. because their LLOD is not trustworthy.

Incomplete or not. That’s my plan. Only option when going no WC and has nothing to do with using or not using AFR.

As far as accurately detect. We’ve never been able to accurately detect anything and relied on WC and that the salt used had the necessary trace or that derived via feeding or other items added which wasn’t better than guessing since ICP is a relatively new thing and it’s proven that’s not accurate for anything and not just that you mentioned.

You seem fixated on disproving the use of AFR and now starting to seem as if it isn’t directed at helping as much as discrediting.

Only solution to fix that you propose is using NSW yet our fish and coral come from different parts of the world and possible their home waters come with different amounts of trace.

You are identifying a cause for which no solution exists and it’s not because one chooses AFR. Typical Balling doesn’t address trace therefore I’m not understanding why you are spending so much effort to discredit the use as if this approach is worse. You’d have the same issues you’ve identified were something else implemented. Blind faith one is providing the proper trace. Something which has always been known and little studied. Mostly anecdotal as to what are specific needs by living organisms and purely based on the composition of NSW for which differs based on source and one has to wonder just how accurate that is since it had to be based on some testing method that we assume is accurate.

Latter I’ve known since the 70s. The battle with getting trace right isn’t new. We just have a better method of guessing now that hobbyist have access to ICP testing which isn’t perfect. Does get us in the ball park and best practice perhaps just to detect glaring miss or overreach. Former can be supplemented and latter would require a larger WC.

One plausible solution is ask Tropic Marin for their ratio of A & K then add that to any additional calcium via other sources such as kalk and repeat with magnesium or dose adjustments of that weekly as most would anyway. I’m only mentioning this because that’s going to be my approach and recommendation as it pertains to the OP’s ask.

At this point I’m done talking about my approach. It’s my recommendation and I’m sticking to it. If you feel it’s not warranted then don’t use it. No one single approach exist and best each to understand the merits and faults of each and proceed as they best see fit.

 

[GARRIGA]

Are you taking about using the ICP company for their preferred elements.?

No. Why assume that?

 

[Reefahholic]

Are you just stuck...



I'm calling you a liar, because you are posting 30 seconds of a one hour conversation. In which he is explaining why you need to do water changes periodically when using AFR. Because magnesium consumption does not correlate with calcification only.

I'll link the rest of the discussion so anyone who cares can see what you are trying to do. Your clip is from around the 10 minute mark.

By all means please use it, and post whatever you want. Facts don’t change.

 

[Reefahholic]

No. Why assume that?

Because you said you will use ICP to supplement which doesn’t make sense unless you’re using that companies elements or another ICP company.

Why I'll be using ICP to supplement

Since you’re not using the ICP company for elements where will you get them, and how will you determine the dose?

ICP will solve additional trace needed

How will the ICP solve it if you’re not using their elements?

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley Verified Community Expert]

I think they use some in their basic muscle but not anything comparable to the consumption stony coral or anything like that.

That's a good reason to keep calcium at normal levels, but I don't think that growing tissue consumes calcium from seawater in general because the internal cellular concentration of calcium is lower than the seawater itself. Thus, a growing organisms that has no bones, skeletons or spicules (in some soft corals) or similar structures may actually cause calcium to rise a very tiny bit in the surrounding seawater by partly excluding calcium.

Natural seawater is about 10 mM calcium, whereas this is how muscle tissues in higher organisms are described:

Signaling in Muscle Contraction - PMC

Signaling pathways regulate contraction of striated (skeletal and cardiac) and smooth muscle. Although these are similar, there are striking differences in the pathways that can be attributed to the distinct functional roles of the different muscle ...

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

"In all muscle cells, contraction thus depends on an increase in cytosolic calcium concentration (Fig. 1). Calcium has an extracellular concentration of 2–4 mM and a resting cytosolic concentration of ∼100 nM. It is also stored inside cells within the sarcoplasmic (SR, referring to skeletal and cardiac muscle) and endoplasmic reticulum (ER, referring to smooth muscle) at a concentration of ∼0.4 mM (Bootman 2012). "

 

[InactiveAcct]

I feel like this is getting over complicated. A4R is a great product and it’s great to pair with water changes. My goal for each year is to do enough water changes to equal system volume. It has worked out great.

 

[Reefahholic]

At this point I’m done talking about my approach. It’s my recommendation and I’m sticking to it.

By all means, please do.

 

[Reefahholic]

I feel like this is getting over complicated. A4R is a great product and it’s great to pair with water changes. My goal for each year is to do enough water changes to equal system volume. It has worked out great.

You are right. How is your potassium level with AFR?