Kalkwasser or All-for-reef?

[SliceGolfer]

Hi @SliceGolfer,

Why not raise elements with AFR? If you bump the dosing, the elements don't get an increase?

M.

They do, but all three get a bump. Could put you on the higher end of Ca and Mg if you were looking to increase Alk. And as mentioned, AFR is based from calcium formate, so dialing in the maintenance dose takes days to a week. Slow and steady. I was raising my dose by 1ml a day until my desired levels were maintained.

AFR grows a deep magenta purple coralline algae in this tank. Much deeper in color than my two part tank.

 

[t5Nitro]

I'm personally interested in running both when my demand increases more and more. My AFR requirement has doubled after adding some coral a few weeks ago, and it may need to go higher yet. What's the largest volume you guys are dosing AFR to your systems? Just wondering what would be considered a lot before turning to kalkwasser for a booster? Since AFR is expensive I wonder if it's reasonable to keep it to 20mL a day and titrate kalk somehow to keep the alk stable.

Is anyone dosing it other than through ATO? Just figure the daily change and seasonal changes to evaporation would make it a little unpredictable.

 

[HuduVudu]

Is anyone dosing it other than through ATO? Just figure the daily change and seasonal changes to evaporation would make it a little unpredictable.

Have dosed Kalk through a stirrer with a doser. Really nice clean way to accomplish alk with top off.

 

[t5Nitro]

I thought the top off method is where your unpredictability comes in. You're not necessarily controlling stable evaporation rate to be perfectly stable. Is there another way people are dosing? It can't be hooked to a dosing pump due to its damaging effects?

Also starting kalk. Would be interested in going very slow 1mL at a time rather than adding up to gallons of saturated limewater daily in top off water?

 

[HuduVudu]

When using a dosing pump I would dose low. If the tank evapped between 750ml and 1L then I would dose around 600ml. This keeps things steady. Things will change over the year because of seasons but you can move it with the season or just dial it down.

If you are using a doser with a stirrer. Pull water from the top off container (RO/DI water) through the doser then push the water into the stirrer and then through the stirrer to the tank. This way the doser only moves RO/DDI water. You just need to ensure that you can occasionally clean the tip of the thing that you are dripping into the tank. I would use muratic acid and it cleaned up fast.

 

[t5Nitro]

Got it. I use a liter meter 3 from spectrapure now as an AWC system; it's got an unused input for a third pump I could addon. RODI reservoir is in the basement. I'd probably need another pump to connect it to the LM3 as a dedicated pump to supply a stirrer, like reef octopus or avast marine? My tank I believe evaporates about a gallon a day. So I could run a separate pump to a stirrer and dial it to begin maybe at 750mL a day and keep bumping it accordingly. Then the main ATO pump can pick up the rest of pure RODI. I like that plan!

I'm wondering if a max daily dose of AFR around 30-40mL would be the threshold to add a kalk stirrer? Both to save some money on further increases in AFR but also if trace elements / Ca / Mg start to become too elevated with attempts to maintain alk as demand increases?

 

[SMSREEF]

I thought the top off method is where your unpredictability comes in. You're not necessarily controlling stable evaporation rate to be perfectly stable. Is there another way people are dosing? It can't be hooked to a dosing pump due to its damaging effects?

I used a dosing pump. It was a set amount for 30 minutes every couple hours during the night. It kept up with evaporation for the most part, but I would keep an eye on water level and add RODI necessary about once or twice a week.
This way it was always the same amount being dosed. If kalk is used in the ATO you have no assurances that you will be dosing a set amount each day.

 

[YankeeTankee]

You get a nice ph boost from kalk that you dont with AFR. So you'd lose that.

Chemically AFR is a little more complicated with a small carbon dosing effect, consuming O2, and other things although it seems to not be a huge deal meaning these other effects are small and may be unnoticeable.

You mentioned your tank is doing pretty well, I'd stick with Kalk in that case but if you want an experiment go for it.

 

[Strad12]

Why use Kalk for anything other than pH boost when you have automated dosing of All-For-Reef? Powdered All For Reef should be arriving in the US soon, which will cut down cost significantly. I’d just use what you have and restock with powdered AFR in a month or two when it drops in the US.

 

[maceto]

Thank you @coseal, @xxkenny90xx, @zsxking, @hart24601, @SliceGolfer, @HuduVudu, @SMSREEF, @Strad12, @t5Nitro, @YankeeTankee

For share in the thread, your opinions and experiences were really useful to me to understand the difference between the products and each one's purpose.

I feel lucky to have a place like R2R!

Thanks

 

[t5Nitro]

Sounds good, man! I'd highly encourage it. I think at a certain point if only your demand becomes incredibly high or to the point something like Mg is increasing past control then you've hit the glass ceiling for AFR. At that point I suspect combination dosing something along the lines of AFR + Kalkwasser serves a great purpose with beneficial side effects including pH boost and cheap cost.

 

[Strad12]

Is there such a thing as a ceiling for All-for-reef? Wasn’t BRS running an SPS dominated Red Sea Max E170 with 4X the “max” dosage of AFR with no ill effects?

The risk with calcium acetate was the bacteria that broke it into calcium and alkalinity would deplete oxygen, but AFR is calcium formate, which doesn’t require nearly the amount of energy or oxygen on behalf of the bacteria.

 

[t5Nitro]

My thought was Mg as an indicator which may not be controlled for the same way you mentioned above. More the accumulation of Mg etc faster than your tank consumes it. The traces we don't routinely test for. The O2 theory I suspect many of our tanks don't run into an issue with given high surface agitation, appropriate surface area for gas exchange and 24/7 skimmers and overflows.

I talked with Lou who told me calcium is a good surrogate marker for appropriate volume dosing of AFR and adjusting alk as needed. He shares in many instances most reefers need not add additional 2 part component to keep alk up but in rarer instances it isn't unheard of to need to use a little 2 part to put your numbers where you want them. Mine happened to start off the opposite being true with alk where I wanted it and had to dose additional 2 part calcium to keep it above 400. Im still dosing a mild dose of 2 part calcium, but much less now that my alk consumption is increasing and subsequent increases in daily AFR dosing. Theoretically you'd have equal consumption of all components within AFR, but if that isn't true in every tank then there is a glass ceiling to the volume you should dose before one of the ingredients is considered above normal range.

 

[boxgj]

I use both, kalk is good for ph boost but often demand exceeds what evaporated from the tank. I use A4R for the rest.

How do you use the kalk with all for reef? Do you dose it at night and all for reef during the day? I plan to go this method too so I can boost ph and also have all the elements the corals need

 

[RobB'z Reef]

I thought the top off method is where your unpredictability comes in. You're not necessarily controlling stable evaporation rate to be perfectly stable. Is there another way people are dosing? It can't be hooked to a dosing pump due to its damaging effects?

Also starting kalk. Would be interested in going very slow 1mL at a time rather than adding up to gallons of saturated limewater daily in top off water?

you can absolutely dose kalk thru a peristaltic doser, it works just fine and is not damaging to your doser. The flexible tube is already a wear item but should hold up just fine. Dose the amount to keep up with your daily alk demands and let you ATO make up the difference. This can even be paired up with a kalk stirrer and you simply use the doser pump to push rodi water into your stirrer and let gravity do the rest. So many options... if your alk demand exceeds your daily evap rate then you have decisions to make. Great products like AFR or any two part out there or dose over saturated (really suspended kalk) to keep up with demand. I usually go the route of saving money so kalk all day long. Trace can be dosed on their own cheaply enough and depending on your tank size/water change regimen dosing elements may or may not be necessary.

 

[hart24601]

Nothing fancy, just kalk running every 15 min off apex controlled dosing pump, around 2l a day (I keep kalk in brute, independent of ato), then have a4r on a regular dosing kamor pump to go 24hr a day I think 25ml. Both go during the whole day. I might be tough to run one at night and one at day since a4r takes 12-24hr for the alk to become testable.

How do you use the kalk with all for reef? Do you dose it at night and all for reef during the day? I plan to go this method too so I can boost ph and also have all the elements the corals need

 

[BiggestE22]

Hi,

Both increase dKH can't use both. You are using both to solve the same problem.

M.

The concern is calcium. If you have enough consumption than using both is fine.

 

[KK's Reef]

Been dosing AFR to my pico for about a month now. Keeps my alk pretty steady and keeps the calcium and mag in line. Has trace elements too. Super easy for maintaining levels in a nano/pico, but probably too expensive on larger systems... unless you go with the powdered form.

 

[Mortgaged Reefs]

I used AFR and went back to kalk because it did a fantastic job with my pH which I have to fight for. Anyone else get a pH boosting effect from AFR?

 

[Not an IT guy]

I run both. No issues. Brs kalk and afr. Kalk in my ato.