Lanthanum Drip ROUND 2 fight. lol

ddc0715 · Feb 22, 2022

update more info to aid future hobbist.

auto dosing of ab+ stopped on Friday

auto dosing of oyster feast still in operation.

by sunday----got phos down to .07 using LC drip,

stopped dosing LC on Sunday afternoon.

sunday- a super-light feeding (1/2 of a small raw shrimp) of the 2 remaining fish every other day.

Monday morning phos tested at .12---- no fish feeding

today (fish feeding day aka Tuesday) phos tested at .26 going to stop auto dosing of oyster feast and turning back on auto dosing of ab+

CONCLUSION
auto dosing of ab+ has no impact on lowering my phos. since my phos still climbed with the dosing of AB+ halted for several days. let's see if the phos culprit is oyster feast interesting. This is how we get to know one's tank.

starting another LC drip today

ddc0715 · Feb 24, 2022

wow check this out..

i ran two drips in another attempt to remove phos... im not saying lower anymore.

this is about 1/4 thick layer of precip. i removed from my fiter sock.. and my phos level only dropped from .26 to .17 but was right back at .20 this morning. so im nolonger in a fight to lower phos im clearly trying to remove phos from my tank before i can control it.

Pistondog · Feb 24, 2022

Crazy.

Snoopy 67 · Feb 24, 2022

Might be time for GFO then.

Ghost25 · Feb 24, 2022

I have added over 45mL of lanthanum chloride to my 20 gallon tank in the last month. The brand I have been using is Pool Time Phosphate Remover which according to the SDS is 8-10% LaCl. That got phosphates from 0.74 to 0.08 PPM. The rock and sand really hold a large amount of phosphate and I find it takes about 2ish days to reach equilibrium (or close to it).

Maximitsurugi · Feb 24, 2022

I've used Lanthanum since the beginning. Went the Seaklear route as well. I have a few experiences.

I soaked my rocks, pre cycle in Lanthanum chloride this time around so I started with a phosphate deficit where I couldn't keep a phosphate reading for over a year. Had to dose. My previous tank however is when I started using lanthanum and I've made many batches of diluted and straight lanthanum for friends.
1st thing. That decrease in phosphate should maybe have been over a longer period. Also I bought 5um filter socks from Dudadiesel. Great stuff.

2nd I dripped it slowly into my overflow where it could react with a lot of water faster and longer than dripping it into the sock. I think what happened to you might have been that unreacted lanthanum went through the filter sock and formed precipitate outside which then went back into the tank. You can add a lot of water to the lanthanum so it's more dilute going in although I can say I've cheated and dripped directly into my overflow.
I'm sorry about your loss for real. It's sad man.

ddc0715 · Feb 25, 2022

update I got it back down to .08 tested last night.. tested this morning and it's back up to .20.. it rose but the amount it has risen is less than the past levels, so there is an improvement it is becoming less and less. given the fact that I stopped auto-dosing ab+ that's also an interesting point. if you have been following the numbers and dates you will see that this is an improvement.

I have gfo on order should be here today.... that being said two questions?

What's better GFO or LC and why?
what is leeching I understand it's the removal of things from the rock and sand, someone provided a brief version earlier on. but i mean Dang... how long with this process take and whats really happening inside the tank. lol

Maximitsurugi · Feb 25, 2022

david campbell said:
update I got it back down to .08 tested last night.. tested this morning and it's back up to .20.. it rose but the amount it has risen is less than the past levels, so there is an improvement it is becoming less and less. given the fact that I stopped auto-dosing ab+ that's also an interesting point. if you have been following the numbers and dates you will see that this is an improvement.

I have gfo on order should be here today.... that being said two questions?

What's better GFO or LC and why?
what is leeching I understand it's the removal of things from the rock and sand, someone provided a brief version earlier on. but i mean Dang... how long with this process take and whats really happening inside the tank. lol

Leeching in reefing terms is when phosphate chemically bonds with rock and then seeps out.
Rock is like a tank and phosphate fills it. Rock literally vacuums it from the water Which is why you can have algae growing from the rocks surface though your water reads 0. The phosphate isn't only in the water and being pulled out of the water by algae. It is getting it mainly from the rock, which is why it grows there.
Now chemically, phosphate wants to be equal levelsboth in the rock and in the water and when they are equal you have a constant reading BUT, if the water changes that balance via GFO, lanthanum etc, then the rock will give up some of its phosphate to rebalance the water.

So your task has been to continuously drain phosphate from the water so that the rock gives up its phosphate. Pull too much and your rock will get empty and then your water won't have any either so you'll need to dose until you can find the magic balance where both rock and water equilibrate at the numbers you want but feeding etc will swing that.
Hence your task 007.

Snoopy 67 · Feb 25, 2022

Gfo is better @ low levels.

Maximitsurugi · Feb 25, 2022

Snoopy 67 said:
Gfo is better @ low levels.

Still leaves the question why. I'll try to explain. GFO is passive, it functions like i hyper version of rock that sort of magnetically pulls phosphate into itself and leaves low phosphate water in its wake. Lanthanum is active, in that it enters your tank searching for phosphate and when it finds it, it forms a chemical solid that we call flocculant. Think of it like phosphate dust. This is what we try to catch with low micron filter sock. The problem is though that if more lanthanum is present in a given amount of water then it won't form this dust until it finds it and that might be after the lanthanumed water passes through the sock.

so lanthanum works well when there's lots of phosphate so the reaction happens and it is Bonded up before it gets to the sock but at lower levels you risk it passing and forming elsewhere while GFO simply pulls and stores phosphate until it's full, creating no known unreefsafe byproducts.

Oooh and also lanthanum can bond with another chemical. I believe carbonate, if it doesn't get to phosphate in time and as we know carbonate is responsible for Alkalinity so some persons find that they experience an Alk swing or drop if a lot of lanthanum is used.

Dennis Cartier · Feb 25, 2022

Another important distinction is that the Lanthanum Phosphate is considered to be inert, once bound, at the normal pH levels within our tanks.

GFO on the other hand will release phosphate back into the water should the amount of phosphate drop below the level bound by GFO, just like calcium carbonate surfaces. So you want to change your GFO as part of a water change to prevent the used GFO from 'topping up' the level of phosphate in the new water.

Snoopy 67 · Feb 25, 2022

To check your GFO test water coming out of the reactor & compare to tank water to see if it should be changed.

ddc0715 · Feb 25, 2022

thanks yall it was nice to get a better understanding of this low phos reading at bedtime and high phos readings the next morning. odd because no food of any kind has entered the tank.

my alk has stayed put. so I have been watching that was good advice as well. so i can assume this sand im pulling out is phos.

since I'm in this up and down phase at the moment, probably due to the rocks and sand giving up the phos to make balance. when will I know I have hit the sweet spot? i assume it will be when my two phos tests (one at night and one the next morning) produce the same reading? i don't wont to suck the tank dry of phos that's for sure.

i wonder if there is alot of info out there about the impacts to a tank if phos is left untreated for many moons (beyond algae issue). but who know how to prevent that in the begining. we don't know the diff between a return pump and a wavemaker in the beginning. i do not have algae issue im just trying to get my levels under. .1 its a

Snoopy 67 · Feb 25, 2022

Constant testing is our only solution for now.

ddc0715 · Feb 26, 2022

ok update... last night i had my phos down to .10 and this morning it's .12 this is a good sign..the overnight jumps are not as large now. I believe that the oyster feast may have been the big contributor to my phos and not the here my two remaining fish are still alive and living happily thru the LC Treatments and the corals look good still.

1. need to put this data into a spreadsheet now because It's getting a bit jumbled.

HOWEVER.

i swear on my kids life. in 3.5 years I have hardly ever had a major problem green hair algae problem with these high phos levels. and now this morning I see green hair algae on random spots in my rock work. is this related to my phos lowering efforts?... is something happening that is promoting the growth of green hair? what green hair spores i did have become desperate since the phos levels are becoming lowered and controlled? i started this journey with phos levels between 1.0-3.0 and no hair algae and now that i am in the .1-.2 range, I'm starting to see it pop up.....this is a wild yet educational ride just hang on. i can not believe i have almost gone thru 25 reagent test pouches. in such a short time. lol

Snoopy 67 · Feb 26, 2022

Same here Dave, my phos. was 5.0. Now its below .05 but still high. The BIG reef tank on LI runs around .16 with great growth on its corals.
So the moral of the story is --we don't know as much as we should.

ddc0715 · Feb 26, 2022

ok here it is in spreadsheet form now I can track it as it happens and not depend on my memory. its pretty telling

ddc0715 · Feb 26, 2022

my gfo arrived today. also, my evening phos test after running ANOTHER 5ml/ 1200ml lc mix is .13. It did not move....

can a tank become use to LC.? or is my rocks and sand coughing it up as fast as I'm pulling it out?

going to fire up my gfo reactor tomorrow morning..