LFS detective work!

JonPhillips · Apr 28, 2016

So, in planning to cycle my new tank I thought it would be advantageous to acquire used salt water from my local fish store to do so. You know, jumpstart the process and score a freebie. Not so fast. Have called 4 places so far and only one would be willing to do this and was also very hesitant, as if the stars would need to align for when they would be doing a water change and I would be present in the store. Like what, you never change your water? I thought, that's weird? But then I realized, they don't want me taking their water home and testing it! AH-HA!

Therefore, every fish store worth its salt (pun totally intended) must post its latest water test results to the side of any tank selling livestock. Don't you want to know the water parameters from the tanks your buying fish and livestock from?

Sounds legit right?

StikHedRon · Apr 28, 2016

"Cycled Water" as your referring too contains little to no beneficial bacteria. It "beneficial bacteria" you need is in the sand or on the rocks.

Watevadog5 · Apr 28, 2016

Agreed, water will do nothing for you.

jsker · Apr 28, 2016

I would say that would be a strange question to also. Now if I am understanding what you asking for, your think that by using the water the a LFS would discard after a water change would speed up your cycle? Your tank is going to cycle regardless even if you used water from the ocean.

JonPhillips · Apr 28, 2016

Watevadog5 said:
Agreed, water will do nothing for you.

Still free.

JonPhillips · Apr 28, 2016

jsker said:
I would say that would be a strange question to also. Now if I am understanding what you asking for, your think that by using the water the a LFS would discard after a water change would speed up your cycle? Your tank is going to cycle regardless even if you used water from the ocean.

Yes, I believe it would speed up the cycle. Not like, lightening fast or anything.

brandon429 · Apr 28, 2016

the speediest cycle is not to have one

outlaw reefing. just like how all those reef tanks were setup at reefapalooza the day of....

use all purple live rock, xport it home underwater, cycle opt out.

if you want to control hitchikers, save money, and start your own substrate and guide it to purple then you have many options for bac sources, ways to feed them etc

d2mini · Apr 28, 2016

It's just dirty water. Nothing more.
Will do nothing for your cycle.

JonPhillips · Apr 28, 2016

d2mini said:
It's just dirty water. Nothing more.
Will do nothing for your cycle.

But its parameters should be in check, which tells me that before I invest in any livestock from LFS I will be asking point blank: what were your water parameters for the last month? Also, if I order online, I will also be testing that water.

Seems like its not just dirty water. Won't it contain trace elements of all good and the bad?

jsker · Apr 28, 2016

JonPhillips said:
Still free.

Just think of the time and gas you are speed to get the free water

JonPhillips said:
Yes, I believe it would speed up the cycle. Not like, lightening fast or anything.

as stated by @d2mini and @brandon429 water is water, what you are looking to do is export the ammonia, nitrate, and phosphate and the quickest way would be with fresh clean water. If you are looking to cycle fast, there are products out the that will do that for you.

mrcoffee2 · Apr 28, 2016

JonPhillips said:
But its parameters should be in check, which tells me that before I invest in any livestock from LFS I will be asking point blank: what were your water parameters for the last month? Also, if I order online, I will also be testing that water.

Seems like its not just dirty water. Won't it contain trace elements of all good and the bad?

I would be surprised if a lot of LFS can tell you their parameters for the previous month. They have so much live stock rotating in and out of their tanks their parameters could never be 100% stable. Lets also throw in the fact they might need to train new people every other month because the turn around in most fish stores is crazy due to under pay. Now if I was buying something from a high end coral vendor, id hope the parameters would be in check

JonPhillips · Apr 28, 2016

jsker said:
Just think of the time and gas you are speed to get the free water

as stated by @d2mini and @brandon429 water is water, what you are looking to do is export the ammonia, nitrate, and phosphate and the quickest way would be with fresh clean water. If you are looking to cycle fast, there are products out the that will do that for you.

Not really in a hurry, just on a budget. But this reminded me that LFS and online dealers should be keeping water at the same standard, if not a higher standard, than us home hobbyist are seeing ours at. I would interested to see some of the reactions you get from your LFS when you ask them how there water is running. Up until now, my mind has always been on how the fish look, but, any more, the water that will tell the true story.

MOPAR · Apr 28, 2016

I could also see this as a liability. LFS get blamed all the time for other people's mistakes. If they let people have their left over water and if anything goes wrong the LFS will likely take the blame. Not defending anyone here just stating how i would take it if i were a business owner. Plus why would you take the risk of using someone else's water? I do everything I can to keep other tanks water out of mine.

jsker · Apr 28, 2016

JonPhillips said:
But its parameters should be in check, which tells me that before I invest in any livestock from LFS I will be asking point blank: what were your water parameters for the last month? Also, if I order online, I will also be testing that water.

Seems like its not just dirty water. Won't it contain trace elements of all good and the bad?

the reason that they are doing to water change is to replenish the trace elements. With a system with fish and corals in it the corals are going to deplete the trace elements. The hypothetical: what happen if they do not know it yet and they have an out break of velvet or another disease and do not know it yet, and now it is in your tank? Then you add live stock and then your are out of business for at least 72 day

Everything I have received free has always cost me some way on another

jsker · Apr 28, 2016

jsker said:
the reason that they are doing to water change is to replenish the trace elements. With a system with fish and corals in it the corals are going to deplete the trace elements. The hypothetical: what happen is the do not know it yet and they have an out break of velvet or another disease and do not know it yet, and now it is in your tank? Then you add live stock and then your are out of business for at least 72 day

Everything I have received free has always cost me some way on another

Did you get the RO/DI on you wish list?

fragit · Apr 28, 2016

The only thing worth testing for when you purchase livestock online is salinity. That water is going to have ammonia in it even on overnight shipments, fish breath, poop, and pee (so do inverts and corals), so you will think that, that water is bad right off the bat. I agree with all of the comments before. It's not worth it, and IMO pointless to use water from a water change for anything other than a QT tank. It is not going to do anything for cycling your tank. In the case of using it in a QT tank you still need to put some sort of sponge in an established system to "culture" bacteria on in order to place that in the QT to deal with animal waste. And @jsker just made a great point, you don't want any pathogens entering your system ever, that's why sooooo many people quarantine new livestock. Why would you add the very water your trying to avoid into a new system. Seems like you would be inviting tragedy and head aches to me. Just my 2C

d2mini · Apr 28, 2016

JonPhillips said:
But this reminded me that LFS and online dealers should be keeping water at the same standard, if not a higher standard, than us home hobbyist are seeing ours at.

You'll find it's quite the opposite at most LFS.
They will do the bare minimum to keep overhead as low as possible, and the goal is not to keep live stock in the store long term but to move it as quickly as possible.

seafansar · Apr 28, 2016

That is an odd request. I get where you're coming from, but I guarantee hardly any people ask their LFS that. So I can see how it would throw them off guard. I can also see it as a liability too. Like mentioned before, LFS's get blamed for a lot of stuff that they have no control over, so keeping that to a min is in the best interest for the store. And I think a lot of LFS's do their water changes when the store is not open since they want their workers to be helping customers and not busy doing water changes. So you're making them change their schedule to do something for you for free. If you're that concerned about their water, once your tank is ready, test the water in a bag you get with a coral purchase. Oh and LFS's probably don't do as many WC's as a regular tank owner simply because as they bag up corals to sell and have to put water back in, it's like doing mini water changes every day. I'm sure there are LFS's who don't have very good water parameters, but you can usually tell by looking at the health of their livestock. And I don't think aged water is going to help your cycle much. Better off with good liverock. Have fun with the new tank!!!

Radman73 · Apr 28, 2016

I thought many LFS' ran their fish systems with low doses of copper? That would be one reason to not use their old dirty water. Coral systems should be okay. But yes, I'd consider it an odd question. Especially if they don't know you. If I were in their shoes, I wouldn't want the chance you come back complaining that their water did this or that to your system. Not worth it.

Scottsquatch · Apr 28, 2016

You mention that it's "still free." No way, you'll pay one way or another. Plus regular instant ocean is fairly inexpensive. For sure it's a better deal than the headache you would be likely to get from used water. Just my .02. Good luck with whatever option you choose.