Lighting and correlation to bacteria/cyano/algae blooms?

[brandon429]

happy to have been linked to the work here, am taking notes. Anything I've ever posted about a work thread this exceeds...and the pic of the spiral growths above, that is best desktop pic for the next few years. Reading along

I like the details that tie into bulk data we generate in the sand rinse threads. We've found that commonality of cyanobacteria as well, across old and new tanks, but we never got to see such pic work and species ID/confirmation (I'll link this thread to ours for our readers to reference here)

we just buzz saw clean tanks before moving homes, or possibly in response to ongoing invasion, and chart what happens across twenty tanks in one place. It's pretty disrespecting of microfauna admittedly... Still handy for bulk data analysis and I hope your work helps us/readers close in on the ~4% tanks that are simply noncompliant no matter what you throw at them.

 

[23Andy23]

Going to add my experience with cyano. I had tank running only led for a couple years without cyano, I added t5s to help with shading and cyano popped up a few days later. It took me a while to make the connection, finally I proved it to myself by running half the aquarium with led only and half with both (9ft aquarium). I also plumbed a 75 gal into my system and put the t5s above it, everything in that tank was covered in cyano and the other aquarium that I removed the t5s from was cyano free. I'm not saying t5s were the cause but they provided something that the LEDs weren't. Just my experience, have fun. Oh, the bulbs we're ati blue+

 

[taricha]

finally I proved it to myself by running half the aquarium with led only and half with both (9ft aquarium). I also plumbed a 75 gal into my system and put the t5s above it, everything in that tank was covered in cyano and the other aquarium that I removed the t5s from was cyano free. I'm not saying t5s were the cause but they provided something that the LEDs weren't. Just my experience, have fun. Oh, the bulbs we're ati blue+

That's pretty good series of demonstrations!
Can you give details on the LEDs? Model or spectrum profile?

 

[Dan_P]

Going to add my experience with cyano. I had tank running only led for a couple years without cyano, I added t5s to help with shading and cyano popped up a few days later. It took me a while to make the connection, finally I proved it to myself by running half the aquarium with led only and half with both (9ft aquarium). I also plumbed a 75 gal into my system and put the t5s above it, everything in that tank was covered in cyano and the other aquarium that I removed the t5s from was cyano free. I'm not saying t5s were the cause but they provided something that the LEDs weren't. Just my experience, have fun. Oh, the bulbs we're ati blue+

Wow! Very interesting experience. Thanks for sharing. There were many variables in this experience, so I attempted to fathom it by breaking the experience in two parts, new tank and old tank.

First, the added 75 gallon aquarium plumbed to your existing system. I have read about experiences like yours. A new refugium, frag tank, sump or aquarium are connected to an existing system and the new container but not the existing one develops cyanobacteria growth. In these cases, the light source was not implicated or not discussed. This event seems common, but no theories were offered as to why cyanobacteria would find new surfaces so inviting. I have always chalked it up to the possibility that cyanobacteria can colonize surfaces faster than algae and bacteria. My latest thinking is that there might be a collaboration (mutualism) between heterotrophic bacteria and cyanobacteria. New surfaces are quickly colonized by bacteria, there waste products encouraging cyanobacteria growth which in turn feeds the bacteria with its exudates. Particulate organic matter is my candidate for what feeds the sticky bacteria bio film on the surfaces. Later multicellular organism feeding on the bio film deposit feces which goes to supplant the influx of organic matter. So, a very long way to saying that I think that the T5 might have had nothing to do with the observations in the 75 gallon system.

What about the lighting event, in the existing, several year old display tank? Your system like all aquaria have cyanobacteria growth. The cyanobacteria growth in the new 75 gallon tank is Testimony to that.. These organisms are typically noticed only when the organism density is great enough to produce a visible colored film or mat. You don’t say exactly where the cyanobacteria growth occurred, but when the T5’s were added, the possibly light limited sparsely populated cyanobacteria colonies could now grow faster, seemingly popping out of nowhere. Increasing light intensity can also over illuminate photosynthetic organisms, causing them to dump unwanted photosynthetic products as sugar into the surroundings. Over illumination can also harm algae, making them weak and susceptible to bacteria infestation. Both of these excessive illumination situations feed the local area with organic material, which can lead to increased cyanobacteria growth. So, a long winded way of saying that increased illumination but not color temperature played the leading role in stimulating cyanobacteria growth.

Again, thanks for sharing. Dan

 

[23Andy23]

Wow! Very interesting experience. Thanks for sharing. There were many variables in this experience, so I attempted to fathom it by breaking the experience in two parts, new tank and old tank.

First, the added 75 gallon aquarium plumbed to your existing system. I have read about experiences like yours. A new refugium, frag tank, sump or aquarium are connected to an existing system and the new container but not the existing one develops cyanobacteria growth. In these cases, the light source was not implicated or not discussed. This event seems common, but no theories were offered as to why cyanobacteria would find new surfaces so inviting. I have always chalked it up to the possibility that cyanobacteria can colonize surfaces faster than algae and bacteria. My latest thinking is that there might be a collaboration (mutualism) between heterotrophic bacteria and cyanobacteria. New surfaces are quickly colonized by bacteria, there waste products encouraging cyanobacteria growth which in turn feeds the bacteria with its exudates. Particulate organic matter is my candidate for what feeds the sticky bacteria bio film on the surfaces. Later multicellular organism feeding on the bio film deposit feces which goes to supplant the influx of organic matter. So, a very long way to saying that I think that the T5 might have had nothing to do with the observations in the 75 gallon system.

What about the lighting event, in the existing, several year old display tank? Your system like all aquaria have cyanobacteria growth. The cyanobacteria growth in the new 75 gallon tank is Testimony to that.. These organisms are typically noticed only when the organism density is great enough to produce a visible colored film or mat. You don’t say exactly where the cyanobacteria growth occurred, but when the T5’s were added, the possibly light limited sparsely populated cyanobacteria colonies could now grow faster, seemingly popping out of nowhere. Increasing light intensity can also over illuminate photosynthetic organisms, causing them to dump unwanted photosynthetic products as sugar into the surroundings. Over illumination can also harm algae, making them weak and susceptible to bacteria infestation. Both of these excessive illumination situations feed the local area with organic material, which can lead to increased cyanobacteria growth. So, a long winded way of saying that increased illumination but not color temperature played the leading role in stimulating cyanobacteria growth.

Again, thanks for sharing. Dan

I'll change my statement to the cyano wasn't growing out of control there were no visible mats, when I added t5 I adjust my lights down so the tank was receiving roughly the same par. When I added the 75 it was filled with dry rock so I was expecting the colonization battle, that was fine, I was just using it to house fish that I didn't want in the bigger tank. After my intial post I was thinking about this and my conclusion is that uv light was growing the cyano. My leds had 420, 450, 470, w, g, and r diodes so nothing too low in the spectrum. Also part I forgot, my tank had three glass lids, the middle one was off and that's the area the cyano began and mostly stayed for a while, before it started creeping further out. I've read that glass can help block uv light so that's the basis for this whole thought process. Which doesn't hold up to the 75 which had glass lids... oops.Ultimately some form of light was the piece my tank was missing.I don't know what other elements were already present to allow it to grow out of hand.

 

[23Andy23]

Missed something, the mats started covering the sand bed and then spread to the rock in the big tank. The 75 it just kind took over everything. Also I've subsequently torn this setup down (it was time for the next version) so I can't experiment on it for ya.

 

[taricha]

So I finally got a sample of a typical oscillatoria red cyano mat to look at the pigments, and compare with spirulina, which is a less common cyano mat type.

Both these red type cyanobacteria have lots of phycoerythrin - a pink pigment that gives them their red color. Oscillatoria has an incredible amount of it.

Just for kicks I did a very rough spectra of the light from a couple of my T5 bulbs. One a very white and one a very blue. I realized something really interesting....

That emission spike in the green at 545nm (unavoidable mercury emission line - in every t5) is sitting perfectly in the peak absorption of the Phycoerythrin in the cyano.
hmmm.....

 

[Bpb]

That's no surprise at all.
Yes, it has to do with nutrients and adaptation changing the bulbs for another type, and most of the time it goes away after the system reaches balance again.
Using 6500K bulbs is a challenge and harder to keep nuisance algae and cyanobacteria from blooming here and there, but one should know that in the ocean, with the sunlight (~"6500K"), that is very normal.
Not a big deal in the long run for any system with good maintenance.
If you take care of the nutrients with better import/export practices it will get to the sweet spot again. Just have to maintain.
It's better to choose what spectrum you really want and keep it then keep playing with it changing bulbs just because.
Not a big deal IMHO.
My $.02.

Thank you for mentioning this. People seem to always forget....there is algae in the ocean. Anyone who has ever been shallow water snorkeling anywhere there are rocks, will note algae. It's natural. If you find it ugly, stock more herbivores to eat it gone

 

[Dan_P]

So I finally got a sample of a typical oscillatoria red cyano mat to look at the pigments, and compare with spirulina, which is a less common cyano mat type.

Both these red type cyanobacteria have lots of phycoerythrin - a pink pigment that gives them their red color. Oscillatoria has an incredible amount of it.

Just for kicks I did a very rough spectra of the light from a couple of my T5 bulbs. One a very white and one a very blue. I realized something really interesting....

That emission spike in the green at 545nm (unavoidable mercury emission line - in every t5) is sitting perfectly in the peak absorption of the Phycoerythrin in the cyano.
hmmm.....

You have just tempted me to look at the spectrum of my 6700 K T5’s. Sounds like you have 10,000 K and actinic tubes, no?

 

[taricha]

You have just tempted me to look at the spectrum of my 6700 K T5’s. Sounds like you have 10,000 K and actinic tubes, no?

The whitish one is ATI aquablue special
https://images.app.goo.gl/9Wibg1oeG7AtgrJ57
Some sources label it 12000k.

The blue one is Coralife actinic.

I also have another blue heavy one and a fiji purple.
The purple one is basically similar to the whitish one with less green in it. Lots of Blue and some red.

 

[Bpb]

What’s the explanation for people who use a ton of 6500k bulbs in their mix. Or 10-14k halides with that massive green spike, and high measurable PO4, but no algae or cyano?

 

[TX_Punisher]

Not cyano but bubble algae here.

Got it down to next to nothing and decided to switch one of my 8 bulb t5 to the Giesemann tropic bulb which claims to be full spectrum close to 6500k to try and increase growth. This is the second time I’ve installed the bulb on my system and each time within 2-3 days my bubble algae has exploded. Nothing else was changed during this time. I’ll be replacing it with another coral plus and hopefully won’t lose too much par.

 

[Dan_P]

What’s the explanation for people who use a ton of 6500k bulbs in their mix. Or 10-14k halides with that massive green spike, and high measurable PO4, but no algae or cyano?

The answers are:

life is complicated,
data selection is usually biased towards what you want to believe,
anecdotal data is unreliable,
the “mass hysteria” effect tends to get people’s belief converging on seeing the same thing, e.g, Big Foot, alien spacecraft shape and color, what causes cyanobacteria mat formation, etc.

A controlled experiment that shows a green spike in the spectrum greatly stimulates algae growth is what would really help. Take several samples of GHA in exactly the same type of container, in the same medium, aerated the same way, illuminated with the same number of photons per second, and vary the spectrum. Which spectrum greatly increases alga growth. Odds are that an effect will be seen but nothing like explosive growth versus dormant alga. It would be a fun summer time investigation.