Lighting and correlation to bacteria/cyano/algae blooms?

[A. grandis]

All that will depend on how much you dose and how much bioload you've got.
If you follow the traditional labeled dosing instructions it might be way too much. It could accumulate in the system.
If your system is young and is still going through the algae cycles you will feed algae.
Once it's mature and you have a fair amount of cnidarians you are giving them some "good juice" when dosing amino acids.
It's a matter of balance and common sense. I have absolutely no problems with algae nor cyanobacteria using aminos and vitamins.
Dosing here consists on drops of various amino acids and vitamins 3 times a week.
Amino acids accumulate in the system if not removed by live organisms or water changes.
The dosing instructions they recommend on their labels are way too much IMO. That is what makes the difference.
I've made so many tests here with amino acids and vitamins that I can tell you they are beneficial to cnidarians.
Corals will absorb them from the water and will utilize them promptly.
I stop the flow and target dose when the system is still young without too many inverts.
It doesn't matter if the organism is single or multi cellular. If the organism can absorb it, amino acids will penetrate their cells and be absorbed for proper functional use.

 

[SaracensRugby]

Tank is about 1 year old, half of the rock is 1 year in, the other half is from a previous tank so 3 years old. No algae issues at this point, just this dang cyano bloom. but I think I have a better understanding now so will slow play my response to it.

Thanks for all of the info!

 

[Emma01]

Unsure whether it’s a coincidence, but I do find as my lights/bulbs get older I have outbreaks more often and on a larger scale ;Bored.

 

[Dan_P]

I know there is potentially more to it as every tank is different, but can something as simple as changing one bulb to another type, say Blue Plus to 6500k, be the cause of a cyano/algae bloom?

The reason I ask is I have read a few times now on here where a change in lighting schedule, and or swapping out of bulbs over the same system, was the cause of a cyano outbreak. And the the change to get rid of the cyano was to go back to the original lighting schedule, and take out the 6500k bulbs (in these two cases).

Is this commonly seen?

Since 2004 when I started paying attention to cyano threads, there has always been the occassional “I changed my lights and cyanobacteria bloomed”. Many people change lights and don’t see cyanobacteria. Makes you wonder whether light intensity and maybe one other factor come into play to trigger mat formation.

Another thing to consider is that after you make a change to your system, you are likely to be looking at your aquarium more frequently, more intently, with greater awareness of details. The cyanobacteria might have been there unnoticed until you started paying attention. Or changing the color of light simply made the existing colors pop and become easier to see.

Would you post the links to the two posts you mentioned?

 

[A. grandis]

Tank is about 1 year old, half of the rock is 1 year in, the other half is from a previous tank so 3 years old. No algae issues at this point, just this dang cyano bloom. but I think I have a better understanding now so will slow play my response to it.

Thanks for all of the info!

You're very welcome.
If you don't have enough corals please stop dosing amino acids for now because the cyanobacteria and algae will take it faster than your corals and therefore you are feeding the cyanobacteria and the algae. Do a 10% water change and make sure you have a good skimmer running. Try to do another 10% a week from now and see how the system reacts. Make sure you have a good RO/DI water to mix your salt or to top off. Avoid temperatures above 8.1°F. If you can keep temp around 79°F will be great.
Cyanobacteria loves nitrates! Test nitrates and phosphates. More important than light!!
ATI Blue Plus is one of the very best bulbs available. In a 6 bulb combo you could have something like 3 Blue Plus, 1 True actinic and 2 "white" bulb, like a 10K or Coral Plus. 10K will be better than Coral Plus to avoid cyanobacteria. Cheers.

 

[Elliot Buss]

I have two coral exhibits at a public aquarium that I take care of and we used to use 10k 1000 watt metal halides on both tanks. One tank has high phosphates (.5-1ppm) and the other doesn't (≥.1ppm) however both tanks still get red cyano and I have to treat bi-monthly. 4 months ago I switched the lighting on the bad tank to 3x 14k 175watt halides and like magic it has not had any cyano at all. My speculation is the intense red and green peaks found in 10k and warmer lights play a factor in the growth rates of cyano bacteria. Hope this helps

 

[A. grandis]

I have two coral exhibits at a public aquarium that I take care of and we used to use 10k 1000 watt metal halides on both tanks. One tank has high phosphates (.5-1ppm) and the other doesn't (≥.1ppm) however both tanks still get red cyano and I have to treat bi-monthly. 4 months ago I switched the lighting on the bad tank to 3x 14k 175watt halides and like magic it has not had any cyano at all. My speculation is the intense red and green peaks found in 10k and warmer lights play a factor in the growth rates of cyano bacteria. Hope this helps

The wattage of the metal halide bulbs you changed should be the same.
If there is a huge difference between the bulbs in wattage (1000W to 175W) ;Wideyed your corals will suffer in the long run.
Wattage shouldn't change, but only the "color" of the bulb.
In public aquariums we need the 1000W for light penetration over deeper systems. Even if you try to substitute 1 X 1000W for 3 X 175W wouldn't give you same results in terms of intensity to reach deeper.
Yes the red is what does it with halides when specially nitrates are present.

With T5s, because we normally use many bulbs to reach a "common overall spectrum", the balance of the combo will determinate the results.
Using a 10000K bulb in a T5 combo with Blue Plus bulbs and a Pure Actinic bulb, for example, will be much better than using pink/purplish bulbs like Coral Plus, Aquablue Special and Purple Plus (Coral Plus is the best of the last 3 here!).
The old style 50-50, or with a bit more blue, is the best T5 combo, generally speaking. That will give us the "14K - 20K" look.

 

[Hans-Werner]

to trigger mat formation

I am not sure what to think about this expression. To me it sounds like cyanos are distributed in the tank and something triggers mat formation. I do not know of any microscopic evidence for that. I think the mat formation is simply rapid growth. Bacterial growth can be very rapid. I have never seen single filaments of the red Oscillatoria distributed in a tank. The mats may be thinner or more patchy in the beginning but I am quite sure that growth is the single factor for larger and thicker mats and neither the excretion of more slime nor single filaments merging to form mats.

 

[Dan_P]

I am not sure what to think about this expression. To me it sounds like cyanos are distributed in the tank and something triggers mat formation. I do not know of any microscopic evidence for that. I think the mat formation is simply rapid growth. Bacterial growth can be very rapid. I have never seen single filaments of the red Oscillatoria distributed in a tank. The mats may be thinner or more patchy in the beginning but I am quite sure that growth is the single factor for larger and thicker mats and neither the excretion of more slime nor single filaments merging to form mats.

I like this idea very much. I guess it is a matter of definition to some extent. If two cyanobacteria are separated by 1 mm, is that a thin mat or two individuals? If a 1 square millimeter sample of green hair algae contains 1 cyanobacterium, is that an individual or part of a very thin mat disrupted by sampling?

 

[Hans-Werner]

I guess it is just an idea. There is not any number of cyanobacteria separated by any distance. It is just a dense mass of filaments (maybe think of a clump of spaghetti) and the cyanobacteria grow by division of cells. The filaments lie there parallel or interwoven but not as single filaments. They form a mass that spreads.

A typical Oscillatoria looks like that.

It is hard to apply the concept of an individuum to bacteria anyways. Maybe all Oscillatoria in a tank have originated from a single filament by division. Separating the filaments does not make them individuals. It is a clone or a strain spread over separated filaments or colonies. Even a single filament is made up of a lot of stacked cells like coins in a roll. Lets say you separate one single cell from such a filament by micromanipulation. What is it after this cell has divided? Two Individuums, the shortest possible filament?

 

[SaracensRugby]

@Dan_P let me look them up, may take me a minute. One of them was not a link, but was BRS Live on Facebook discussion, not sure how I came on it the other week but the main guy who does all their videos said he had two frag tanks plumbed to the same sump, but with different lighting units over each tank. So same filtration, same water, etc. He put 6500k bulbs over one and cyano all over it, but not on the other frag tank. Swapped the lights to the other tank, same thing. Took the 6500k bulbs off completely, cyano gone.

When I started I had a Hydra 26 over my first tank, and I seem to recall reading that you don't want a lot of red/green light, as that would "help" cyano/algae growth. Can't point that to anything specific since it was 3 years ago. I know my H160 from Kessil, which does an amazing job, is really purple light right now in "grow" mode over my sump.

@A. grandis what would be a good 10k bulb? My actinic will be here any day now. My bulbs are due for a change in the next few months so doing some testing to see what spectrum I like. I put a new B+ bulb to replace the 6500k so now have: 4 B+, 1 Coral +, and 1 Fiji Purple. Too blue for my eyes, so thinking of putting either the actinic or another Coral + on the 6 bulb, but open to trying a different bulb as well.

Cheers, great thread.

 

[Docdiggy]

I have a 6 bulb t5. I added an additional actinic. I have 2 in the center side by side. I like the color, but have been getting pretty bad cyano. Not sure if that's causing it.

 

[Elliot Buss]

The wattage of the metal halide bulbs you changed should be the same.
If there is a huge difference between the bulbs in wattage (1000W to 175W) ;Wideyed your corals will suffer in the long run.
Wattage shouldn't change, but only the "color" of the bulb.
In public aquariums we need the 1000W for light penetration over deeper systems. Even if you try to substitute 1 X 1000W for 3 X 175W wouldn't give you same results in terms of intensity to reach deeper.
Yes the red is what does it with halides when specially nitrates are present.

With T5s, because we normally use many bulbs to reach a "common overall spectrum", the balance of the combo will determinate the results.
Using a 10000K bulb in a T5 combo with Blue Plus bulbs and a Pure Actinic bulb, for example, will be much better than using pink/purplish bulbs like Coral Plus, Aquablue Special and Purple Plus (Coral Plus is the best of the last 3 here!).
The old style 50-50, or with a bit more blue, is the best T5 combo, generally speaking. That will give us the "14K - 20K" look.

It was a 475 gallon tank with one leather coral in it. The intensity of the 1000 watt was killing the coral and was put in place by someone who didn't know corals were photosynthetic... I know why we use 1kw lights but it wasn't the right application.

 

[A. grandis]

It was a 475 gallon tank with one leather coral in it. The intensity of the 1000 watt was killing the coral and was put in place by someone who didn't know corals were photosynthetic... I know why we use 1kw lights but it wasn't the right application.

;Wideyed I'm glad you changed.
What Aquarium is that?

 

[Elliot Buss]

;Wideyed I'm glad you changed.
What Aquarium is that?

Somewhere in FL, probably shouldn't say exactly because well you know haha

 

[A. grandis]

@Dan_P
...
@A. grandis what would be a good 10k bulb? My actinic will be here any day now. My bulbs are due for a change in the next few months so doing some testing to see what spectrum I like. I put a new B+ bulb to replace the 6500k so now have: 4 B+, 1 Coral +, and 1 Fiji Purple. Too blue for my eyes, so thinking of putting either the actinic or another Coral + on the 6 bulb, but open to trying a different bulb as well.

Cheers, great thread.

10000K:
https://www.bulkreefsupply.com/korallen-zucht-coral-light-t5-lamp.html
This one is even better...
14000K:
https://www.bulkreefsupply.com/korallen-zucht-coral-light-ii-new-generation-t5-lamp.html

I would suggest you to try 1 or 2 KZ 10K or 14K bulbs, 1 True Actinic and 3 Blue Plus.
I don't know why people waste their slots with those Purple Plus or Fiji Purple.
It's not about our visual pleasure, my friends.. it's about offering the best spectrum you can offer to your system.. Well..
Every time you think of a purple bulb just get a Blue Plus!! The best you can offer to your corals. Good par and an amazing spectrum.

 

[A. grandis]

Somewhere in FL, probably shouldn't say exactly because well you know haha

Ok, yes, sorry.

 

[A. grandis]

I have a 6 bulb t5. I added an additional actinic. I have 2 in the center side by side. I like the color, but have been getting pretty bad cyano. Not sure if that's causing it.

True Actinic bulbs never gave me any problems with cyano nor algae. They are amazing bulbs to tell the truth. I had to try twice to learn that.
In a 6 bulb combo I use 1 True Actinic. If I have an 8 bulb fixture I would use up to 2 True Actinics.
We need to understand that we have many different species of cyanobacteria too...
Each of them will prefer different spots in the tank and spectrums.
Most of the ones I've seen will love nitrates and red/pink/purple spectrum.

 

[Dan_P]

I guess it is just an idea. There is not any number of cyanobacteria separated by any distance. It is just a dense mass of filaments (maybe think of a clump of spaghetti) and the cyanobacteria grow by division of cells. The filaments lie there parallel or interwoven but not as single filaments. They form a mass that spreads.

A typical Oscillatoria looks like that.

It is hard to apply the concept of an individuum to bacteria anyways. Maybe all Oscillatoria in a tank have originated from a single filament by division. Separating the filaments does not make them individuals. It is a clone or a strain spread over separated filaments or colonies. Even a single filament is made up of a lot of stacked cells like coins in a roll. Lets say you separate one single cell from such a filament by micromanipulation. What is it after this cell has divided? Two Individuums, the shortest possible filament?

I have surveyed my aquarium with a microscope quite a bit and finding a lonely cyanobacterium is not a rare event. Just today, I was examing a clump of green hair algae that I am culturing and I found cyanobacteria filaments on it widely scattered. These were rather long and actively moving about. The same for Spirulina. They started out scatted across the algae, not in clumps as you might expect if one landed, divided into two, four, eight, etc. I watched this plant for a week and it seems the density of filaments increase across the algae rather than a colony radiating out from one spot to form a mat. I need to review cyanobacteria reproduction and continue to think about your idea.

 

[Hans-Werner]

Ok, Thank you for your observations. If you have the opportunity, could you please try to take a Spirulina photograph for me. I have only rarely found single spirals of Spirulina but never any mat or colony. I sometimes take images with a Sony APS-C mirrorless cam with kit lens but a smartphone should do the job too.

Here you can find a photograph of a single Oscillatoria sp. filament from me and some further microphotographs, some also with Oscillatoria spp. and other cyanos.

What do you think, how does the mat formation take place if not by growth and division of the cells and filaments?