Lionfish aggression

[Han]

I have a radiata lionfish who has become quite aggressive in the last few months. Tankmates are a valentini puffer, plesiops betta, ribbon eel, and dusky jawfish in a 73 gallon tank. The lionfish recently stung the betta (who has luckily recovered) and stung and killed a foxface. It acts aggressively towards everything in the tank except the eel. Does anyone have any tips for reducing this lion’s aggression? I don’t have the space for another tank so right now my only options are to sell the lionfish (which I really don’t want to do) or divide the tank somehow to isolate the lionfish. Thanks

 

[lion king]

I remember responding to your your "betta stung" post, so since then he has killed the foxface? A 73g is right on the smallest size tank you would want for a radiata, so separating the tank would not be the best option. As I stated in the other post, I have never seen a lion attack without being provoked, other than trying to eat something. On another note, the dusky jawfish would likely be food in any of my lion tanks, I presently have 7 lions in 4 different tanks. I think the tank was and maybe still is overstocked for an aggressive/predator tank. If I were keeping a radiata in a73g, I would keep the betta and the ribbon eel; and that is it. The valentini is a nipper, and I bet you he is bothering the radiata, i wouldn't be surprised if he were next. The foxface seems real laidback, but I've seen mine get aggressive toward my tangs, there was likely some territorial dispute going on there. The betta is a surprise as I don't really see the betta provoking the lion, unless there was a dispute over a cave and there wasn't enough room for the betta to retreat. A lion does not commonly just go after another fish, they are not as fast as most fish, and most fish with enough room can just get out of their way. I have seen accidental stings during a feeding frenzy at feeding time. It's hard to tell from the pic, but that radiata will get over 8" in captivity.

 

[Han]

I remember responding to your your "betta stung" post, so since then he has killed the foxface? A 73g is right on the smallest size tank you would want for a radiata, so separating the tank would not be the best option. As I stated in the other post, I have never seen a lion attack without being provoked, other than trying to eat something. On another note, the dusky jawfish would likely be food in any of my lion tanks, I presently have 7 lions in 4 different tanks. I think the tank was and maybe still is overstocked for an aggressive/predator tank. If I were keeping a radiata in a73g, I would keep the betta and the ribbon eel; and that is it. The valentini is a nipper, and I bet you he is bothering the radiata, i wouldn't be surprised if he were next. The foxface seems real laidback, but I've seen mine get aggressive toward my tangs, there was likely some territorial dispute going on there. The betta is a surprise as I don't really see the betta provoking the lion, unless there was a dispute over a cave and there wasn't enough room for the betta to retreat. A lion does not commonly just go after another fish, they are not as fast as most fish, and most fish with enough room can just get out of their way. I have seen accidental stings during a feeding frenzy at feeding time. It's hard to tell from the pic, but that radiata will get over 8" in captivity.

The radiata killed the foxface last month. He’s only about 4-5” right now, so I’m worried that as he gets bigger things will only get worse. I never saw the foxface bother him other than invading the lion’s personal space, which is how he got stung. I haven’t seen the puffer bother him, but that doesn’t mean he doesn’t nip when I’m not looking. There are 4 “caves” in the tank but it just seems like the lion gets aggressive whenever any of them are occupied. I guess the best thing to do would be get rid of the lion... I think it’s an awesome fish but I really don’t want any more fish to get stung or die. Luckily the jawfish is bigger than the lion so I don’t have to worry about him getting eaten... yet.

 

[lion king]

That;s a bummer, I would always get rid of everything else before the lion. The radiata is a tough lion to acclimate, most don;t make it. So for you to already have him situated is a bigger deal than you think. I would hate to see you get rid of him and he doesn't go to the proper home.

 

[Han]

That;s a bummer, I would always get rid of everything else before the lion. The radiata is a tough lion to acclimate, most don;t make it. So for you to already have him situated is a bigger deal than you think. I would hate to see you get rid of him and he doesn't go to the proper home.

Yeah he’s an awesome fish, when I first got him he was difficult to even feed live food, now he’ll accept anything whether it’s frozen or live. And eats like a pig. What is the minimum tank size you’d recommend for him if he was to be kept alone?

 

[lion king]

I really like him in at least the size tank you have him in now, but bare minimum if I had to, a 55-60g. Petco just had one of those $1g sales, you could add another small lion like a fuzzy or a zebra, and a 2 lion tank can be fun. Here's a pic of my 90g lion pride, see how they are all hanging together. It;s not a guarantee because I have a blackfoot and a fuzzy that are loners, but many times they can be very social with other lions. My yellow spot scorp is best friends with a fu manchu.

 

[Han]

I really like him in at least the size tank you have him in now, but bare minimum if I had to, a 55-60g. Petco just had one of those $1g sales, you could add another small lion like a fuzzy or a zebra, and a 2 lion tank can be fun. Here's a pic of my 90g lion pride, see how they are all hanging together. It;s not a guarantee because I have a blackfoot and a fuzzy that are loners, but many times they can be very social with other lions. My yellow spot scorp is best friends with a fu manchu.

I think you’ve persuaded me to set up a 60g in my basement for him lol. Since you obviously have a lot of experience with lions, what do you prefer for feeding? I mainly feed mine krill and pieces of silversides, occasionally some ghost shrimp as a treat.

 

[lion king]

For long term success, I mean years 10plus, I recommend a live feeding at least weekly. Ghost shrimp are great if you read through my post https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/an-arguement-for-feeding-live-foods.582822/page-2#post-6386778 and check out the last entry about ghost shrimp. If you can get mollies as cheap as I can, one a couple/few times a month would be a good addition. Live food serves as much more than a treat, my lions are on a live dominant diet. The thing about a dead diet is that it does have to be varied and regardless there is something missing that does need to be supplemented by live foods. If you have an Asian market they have krill in the frozen section that is human grade and not orange they call tiny shrimp. Chunks of salmon and tuna are good if he will take it. I do not meet anyone with their lions for years, and they should be with us 10plus years.

 

[lion king]

Yes silversides is good as well, people don't figure how much the guts and bone add to their nutrition.

 

[Han]

Yes silversides is good as well, people don't figure how much the guts and bone add to their nutrition.

I’ll have to try salmon and tuna, he eats (or attempts to eat) just about anything that moves so I’m sure it wouldn’t be a problem. Thanks for all the information!

 

[Bpfor3]

Hey guys, I just picked up a radiata and fu Manchu. Radiata is about 3-4 in. Fu is 2. I have some live ghost shrimp to try to get them started. They are going in my 150 mixed reef, but I need to get them through my QT protocol and feeding heavily before. Any tips? They are both in bare bottom 40 breeder with pvc and only ambient light for now.

 

[lion king]

Hey guys, I just picked up a radiata and fu Manchu. Radiata is about 3-4 in. Fu is 2. I have some live ghost shrimp to try to get them started. They are going in my 150 mixed reef, but I need to get them through my QT protocol and feeding heavily before. Any tips? They are both in bare bottom 40 breeder with pvc and only ambient light for now.

When you say QT protocol, what does that entail. I do not recommend the use of any meds other than ones to manage internal parasites. General cure would be fine, but really hasn't earned my long term seal of approval yet. Prazi pro and metroplex are fine. Absolutely no copper.

They will do better if you provide something in the form of a cave structure, pvc large enough for them to go inside. I use rock in my qt, but I'm not pushing that.

It is going to be very tough if not down right impossible to convert both those lions to a dead only diet, if that's what you are planning; especially the fu. Both these lions have been known to refuse dead food after a while, even if you get them eating well, and you will have to re-introduce live food or watch them starve.

 

[Bpfor3]

Thanks! I just found your post on QT. I’ll dose prazi tomorrow. I have metro, kana and furan2 on hand. I have done copper and tank transfer and based on your suggestion. I’ll do tank transfer with them, but won’t start until they are eating good. On tank transfer I time the transfer for when it’s dark out. I scoop them out with a plastic colander. Both tanks are identical and it seems to work well. We will see how the dead feeding goes. I’m prepared to feed live if need be. Thanks for the comments! Much appreciated.

 

[lion king]

Thanks! I just found your post on QT. I’ll dose prazi tomorrow. I have metro, kana and furan2 on hand. I have done copper and tank transfer and based on your suggestion. I’ll do tank transfer with them, but won’t start until they are eating good. On tank transfer I time the transfer for when it’s dark out. I scoop them out with a plastic colander. Both tanks are identical and it seems to work well. We will see how the dead feeding goes. I’m prepared to feed live if need be. Thanks for the comments! Much appreciated.

Are you doing tank transfer for management of ick and velvet. Not to talk you out of it, just as reference, healthy lions are pretty much resistant to protozoan type parasitic diseases like ick and velvet. They have a slime coating that resist any attachment, and if threatened, they shed their cuticle layer to disperse. If you are experienced with ttm then by all means, no problem. I would refrain from using any antibiotics, if there are no bacterial issues present now, any that show up will be superficial and will likly clear on it's own with proper nutrition and optimum water conditions

 

[WVNed]

I have had my dwarf fuzzy 7 months. He only eats live shrimp, guppies and the large pods that come out at night.
No interest in anything else.

 

[Bpfor3]

Are you doing tank transfer for management of ick and velvet. Not to talk you out of it, just as reference, healthy lions are pretty much resistant to protozoan type parasitic diseases like ick and velvet. They have a slime coating that resist any attachment, and if threatened, they shed their cuticle layer to disperse. If you are experienced with ttm then by all means, no problem. I would refrain from using any antibiotics, if there are no bacterial issues present now, any that show up will be superficial and will likly clear on it's own with proper nutrition and optimum water conditions

Yes, mainly. I have had a tank wipe out with ich and vowed never again. I know from experience lions usually never have issues but I have some tangs that I don’t want to risk. Again, really appreciate your insight. I have wanted a radiata since I was a kid, some 20-30 years ago.

 

[Bpfor3]

Update. Radiata instantly took two ghost shrimp. The fu man chu is upside down (normal) under the lip of my hang on the back filter at the top of the tank. Can't really get the shrimp to him where he will see him. Going to leave him be and wait till tomorrow to see if he comes down. Lots of pvc in the tank for caves, so i wonder why he is all the way at the top. Think the radiata is bothering him? First dose of praziquantel in today.

 

[lion king]

Update. Radiata instantly took two ghost shrimp. The fu man chu is upside down (normal) under the lip of my hang on the back filter at the top of the tank. Can't really get the shrimp to him where he will see him. Going to leave him be and wait till tomorrow to see if he comes down. Lots of pvc in the tank for caves, so i wonder why he is all the way at the top. Think the radiata is bothering him? First dose of praziquantel in today.

Looking at one of my fuzzies right now, at the top back corner of the tank, it's a great vantage point, and completely normal. Hanging upside down or face down perched against the overflow or tank sides, completely normal. Throw a hand full of ghosties in to get the fu's attention, they can live in sw long enough for them to catch them. You can use a clear rigid air line tube to herd the ghosties to a good sight line for the fu to see. The ones that die, before they turn orange, you can use to start to get them to take dead. You can even freeze them to use later. Fresh dead ghosties is one of the 1st things to start to get them on dead food. Once they are used to the live ghosties being dumped into the tank, they'll be waiting for you at the top of the tank. Then just drop a dead ghostie for them to grab. Lions will rarely eat of the ground, if there is no movement. So it needs to be suspended in the water column or moving on the ground, you can even use the rigid tube to flick up dead food that hits the bottom to simulate movement. Beware: do not get caught in the krill trap, an exclusive krill diet will lead to vit B1 deficiency and death.

 

[Bpfor3]

Well, i came in the morning and the FU was dead. Maybe it could not handle the prazi. Radiata is hanging at the top where the FU was. Hopefully he eats today. ill do a 25% water change tomorrow nd see how it goes.

 

[lion king]

Well, i came in the morning and the FU was dead. Maybe it could not handle the prazi. Radiata is hanging at the top where the FU was. Hopefully he eats today. ill do a 25% water change tomorrow nd see how it goes.

Sadly the mortality rate of these lions are extremely high. Prazi is one of the few drugs they can handle. If there was even a chance he came from a source that ran copper in their system, its pretty much 100% death rate. And the likelihood of any lion living that long is doubtful.