List the top controversial reef keeping practices

Randy Holmes-Farley · Apr 28, 2021

BostonReefer300 said:
These days? Gotta be “ideal NO3 and PO4 levels”

Unfortunately, we and our predecessors got carried away by using real ocean reef parameters as a target goal for aquaria, without actually carefully testing whether that was optimal in a less than perfect simulation of the ocean.

LRT · Apr 28, 2021

NSW nutrient levels is definetely a hot topic.
Way too many Reefs running much higher nutrient levels than NSW and getting same great results, if not better than those running close to NSW levels.

Why is that? Do you think these parameters should be revisited considering what's on our particular reefs? Real 20 yr old ocean rock, high nutrient export, dry rock etc?

Randy Holmes-Farley · Apr 29, 2021

LRT said:
NSW nutrient levels is definetely a hot topic.
Way too many Reefs running much higher nutrient levels than NSW and getting same great results, if not better than those running close to NSW levels.

Why is that? Do you think these parameters should be revisited considering what's on our particular reefs? Real 20 yr old ocean rock, high nutrient export, dry rock etc?

I don't think that answer is controversial: real reefs have other sources of N and P for corals: especially plankton and other organic matter.

The mistake we made was in thinking that natural levels of nitrate and phosphate were "optimal". They aren't, if those other sources are not present in sufficient quantity.

LRT · Apr 29, 2021

Randy Holmes-Farley said:
I don't think that answer is controversial: real reefs have other sources of N and P for corals: especially plankton and other organic matter.

The mistake we made was in thinking that natural levels of nitrate and phosphate were "optimal". They aren't, if those other sources are not present in sufficient quantity.

Hi Randy I appreciate you taking time to answer my questions.
I have a feeling if I asked what you would consider "optimal" levels today. That it would be entirely dependent on how we have built our own unique reefs, real ocean rock vs dry rock, maturity of reef etc?
I'm trying to get a handle on balance of nutrients in my system and am finding a Nitrate level around 10-20ppm is ok. Closer to the lower side is better for nuisance algae so ill be sticking to somewhere around 10ppm. Not stressed if it creeps to 20ppm in between water changes.
Phosphates ive had to dose im trying to keep them around .06-.1. Its feeling like a sweet spot atm. Any lower and ill end up bottoming out or getting real close since I set my ats up its using alot of phosphates.
If I can get to manageable lower levels of N and P thats my goal im just trying to wait out and see how my ats work out once fully established.
Besides plankton you mentioned other organic materials. What would be the other organic materials to supplement to be best utilized?

Randy Holmes-Farley · Apr 29, 2021

LRT said:
Hi Randy I appreciate you taking time to answer my questions.
I have a feeling if I asked what you would consider "optimal" levels today. That it would be entirely dependent on how we have built our own unique reefs, real ocean rock vs dry rock, maturity of reef etc?
I'm trying to get a handle on balance of nutrients in my system and am finding a Nitrate level around 10-20ppm is ok. Closer to the lower side is better for nuisance algae so ill be sticking to somewhere around 10ppm. Not stressed if it creeps to 20ppm in between water changes.
Phosphates ive had to dose im trying to keep them around .06-.1. Its feeling like a sweet spot atm. Any lower and ill end up bottoming out or getting real close since I set my ats up its using alot of phosphates.
If I can get to manageable lower levels of N and P thats my goal im just trying to wait out and see how my ats work out once fully established.
Besides plankton you mentioned other organic materials. What would be the other organic materials to supplement to be best utilized?

My current recommendations for typical reefs are 2-10 ppm nitrate, 0.02 to 0.05 ppm phosphate, a nd algae control by biological means 9fish, etc.) rather than reduced nutrients.

As to organic foods, particulates of certain sizes are needed for certain organisms. IMO, carbon dosing can help drive bacterial growth that can boost bacteria in the water than feeds certain organisms (e.g., sponges). Amino acids are also a good source of N, but phosphate is trickier.

LRT · Apr 29, 2021

Randy Holmes-Farley said:
My current recommendations for typical reefs are 2-10 ppm nitrate, 0.02 to 0.05 ppm phosphate, a nd algae control by biological means 9fish, etc.) rather than reduced nutrients.

As to organic foods, particulates of certain sizes are needed for certain organisms. IMO, carbon dosing can help drive bacterial growth that can boost bacteria in the water than feeds certain organisms (e.g., sponges). Amino acids are also a good source of N, but phosphate is trickier.

Awesome thanks Randy!
Essentially I am really hoping to get my Nitrates between 5-10ppm and Phosphates somewhere manageable around .06 would be ok for now without bottoming out. Just seems better all the way around for nuisance algae.
I had to exile my fish to sumps but have beefed up my snail cuc in shallow tables and they seem to be keeping up with my regular husbandry now.
Since I set up my ats it seems like as its getting established I am seeing alot less algae growing on my tables and on my scrubber mats like intended.
I think it was you and others that I seen talking about how certain macro algae did a better job at pulling certain things out of water like metals.
Right now my biggest battle is Nitrates.
Is there a particular Macro algae out there will help store and make Nitrate export easier?

Randy Holmes-Farley · Apr 29, 2021

LRT said:
Awesome thanks Randy!
Essentially I am really hoping to get my Nitrates between 5-10ppm and Phosphates somewhere manageable around .06 would be ok for now without bottoming out. Just seems better all the way around for nuisance algae.
I had to exile my fish to sumps but have beefed up my snail cuc in shallow tables and they seem to be keeping up with my regular husbandry now.
Since I set up my ats it seems like as its getting established I am seeing alot less algae growing on my tables and on my scrubber mats like intended.
I think it was you and others that I seen talking about how certain macro algae did a better job at pulling certain things out of water like metals.
Right now my biggest battle is Nitrates.
Is there a particular Macro algae out there will help store and make Nitrate export easier?

The fastest growing will take up the most nitrogen. In my tank, that was caulerpa racemosa, but that species runs a big risk of getting established as a pest in the main tank, requiring special herbivore fish to control it.

Randy Holmes-Farley · Apr 29, 2021

drblank1 said:
Didn't know this was a thing. I'm an electrical engineer and if there are stay currents in the water, the fish are oblivious to them. You have to be grounded to experience the effects. Its like an airplane in flight being struck by lighting (which happens WAY MORE than you know) or a bird on a wire. No affect.

Definitely a thing.

As a follow up to my earlier post, here's a scientific paper showing electric stunning of fish in seawater:

https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/abs/10.1577/1548-8454(2003)065%3C0008%3AEOEFSA%3E2.0.CO%3B2

"We evaluated electricity as a stunning method before slaughter of Atlantic salmon Salmo salar by assessing both stunning effectiveness and injuries. About 300 salmon (1.2–6.6 kg) were exposed to one-phase, sinusoidal, 50-Hz AC in seawater; electrical field strengths ranged from 15 to 250 V/m and current durations from 0.2 to 12 s. We measured the duration of the epileptic-like seizures after stunning and the degree of unconsciousness based on behavioral responses. "