long term led par levels discussion

I think the biggest issue with most led users is they jump to the newest greatest every year or so there are very few long term led users who set it and forget it like us old MH users. Although I used them I was not a big T5 fan. I just could not get the lamps to last past 12 months. Here is an old picture I drug up with 3 x 250w MH, 2 14k BML, and a T12 VHO Actinic on my old 300DD. The birdsnest in this tank grew so fast my LFS where always overstocked.
Full Tank.jpg


For me now I like the cleaner look of 4 BMLs, two 14k and two 20k (made to mimic Radium MH) on my 180 down grade as compared to my old MH pendants
180 - 10-30-17.jpg
 
So basically what I’m seeing for the most part led users don’t keep the same leds they originally got and just continue to spend hundreds of dollars when they add a new color to the lineup for the pucks.

Good thing I’m happy with my lights and actually use them to their potential.

Also no I’m not cheap just Incase anybody is thinking that I have 5 MP40qd, 2 wav pumps, new apex, custom sump, Genesis reef systems auto water changer and much more. It’s just common sense if your plan is to save money on power or changing of bulbs kinda makes you look silly if every 2 years your getting new expensive led fixtures... I guess in reality you don’t save money with leds compared to T5s or MH if your constantly getting new ones.

I’m sure there are differences in par levels for leds and I know there are more costs for replacement parts compared to T5s but nobody keeps them long enough I suppose.

:)

Hopefully somebody does and actually logs their stuff instead of just saying yup exactly the same.....
 
As Oreo5457 stated Build my led was a company in Austin Texas that made both Horticulture and Aquarium Lighting but now only makes Horticulture lighting. They came with a 3 year warranty where most came with a one. When they made the switch to Bio Fluence they made the statement they would continue the warranty, but like all great products I have never needed it. I like mine because like an old MH user they come on and they got off, I am not interested in ramping up and down. They are damp rated fixtures, no fans, the lens diffuses the leds so you don't get the usual spot lights like most leds. I do very well with a PAR reading of 70 on the sand and 250 average. Here is a picture of my newly moved from my house to my office where I combined my old office tank corals. Two of the BML lights I bought used.
all corals.jpg


The large SPS on the left started out as a sickly frag with one BML in my office 65 a little over two years ago


65 8-19 reduced (2).jpg
 
MH kinda ramped up since the intensity wasn’t 100% when the turned on it took a little bit for them to be 100%.

Tanks looks good

Crazy never heard of this bml light before and now 2 have said they have them lol.

Ramping up and down is a thing that in my opinion is necessary butt the sun isn’t at 100% when it comes up....

My t5s come on 2 at a time and the leds also ramp up over a 2hr period
 
But yes leds grow Corals.... just would like to see actually data from a user that takes par reading to see if they loose par at the same intensity over time....

Like I said I’m beginning to think nobody cares as they just buy new ones and not saving money.

I can change my colors by simply putting a different color of bulb on...
 
LED's eliminated the crude, shotgun approach of both ramping and color...........;)
There is really no comparison AFAIAC.....
Now "need/want" is a different story....

Everyone cares about PAR.. And LEd's are new.
Bet people (b4 my time) shifted MH's as "new" bulbs came out too..........t12, t8, t5's t5 HO t5 VHO ect...

Things are no different..........except for inflation.. :)
Oh and speed..........
 
I’ve been in the hobby for 16 years we may changed out our bulbs to some new bulb but we didn’t buy new fixtures...

But this isn’t a thread about which light you like the most. It’s about if leds loose par over time. Also most people ramp up there leds I don’t know any that don’t unless they have the cheap on off ones...

Thanks for everyone’s posts I do appreciate it hopefully we can get some data of what the thread was originally about :)
 
That really makes no sense on speed... my T5s turn on when they are supposed to.... same with my leds
Speed as in things changing........
"Rarely have there been seismic shifts in how we did things; rather, techniques and equipment have gradually changed as new advances have been made. When we shifted from the Dutch method, using trickle filters, to the Berlin method, using skimmers, the media in the trickle filter was removed gradually over weeks, if not months, in most systems before anyone felt comfortable relying solely on a protein skimmer instead of a trickle filter for filtration. Similarly, as reefkeepers switched from soft corals to SPSsmall-polyped Scleractinians, or small-polyped stony corals, for example Acropora. (See LPS.)" class="glossaryLink ">SPS corals, very few hobbyists removed all of their soft corals and replaced them with SPS corals over night. It was a gradual process that took years............."
bit unrelated but you may get my drift..
https://www.reef2rainforest.com/201...rs-of-metal-halide-use-to-radically-new-leds/


2014..
http://reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2388439&page=2
You hear the claims of "50000" hours or whatnot through most if not all LED manufacturers.

I have done the same with other LED manufacturer and DIYs, over a year I saw a 10% drop in par while running 50% (that was the reefbreeders in 2012 and measured again in 2013).

For the AI Vegas, a neighbor has been running 8hr/day at cap 40-60 (white/red/green - blues) and at a year they've dropped not even 5% in PAR.

It is interesting to say the least, maybe like all bulbs there are variations in quality.
13070645733_e70763aa6a_c.jpg
 
Last edited:
hey thanks for your input looks like that guy went to T5s...

Hopefully we will see some real world data from someone that has used LEDS long term to confirm with actually physical par readings cause that’s what I am interested in and why I posted this thread :)
 
I know still "theoretical" and a vested interest to boot........ but fun:
We shall refer to two types of such forecasts: based on Cree's model (which we call the "worst case scenario" or "pessimistic model"), and in parenthesis we provide figures based on the Philips model for their LUXEON Rebel ES (which we call the "optimistic model"). If all the required operation conditions are fulfilled, we will still be getting about 70% of LED's initial radiation power after 40 (150) thousand hours of operation. These figures translate to 10 (33) years of operation of a light fixture, providing 12 hours of operation daily! After this period the LEDs will continue to lose luminance, reaching about 50% of the initial value after 100 (200) thousand hours!

The probability of a single LED failure on a fixture is quite low, about 1% during the period of 50 thousand hours of operation, and after this period the probability increases to 50% by 200 thousand hours. Several LEDs in a light fixture are usually connected in series, and therefore, if one LED dies, the whole string will be effected. If we look at these figures statistically, is likely that for a fixture with about 200 LEDs this can happen in 10 years. However a LED's death is a probabilistic event and it can happen that a particular light emitting diode may get "fried" during the very first hours of its life. In practice, if the conditions are good, lifespan of modern LEDs is quite long.

In comparison, conventional fluorescent tubes need to be replaced once every four to six months. Based on our worst case scenario, it means that they will have to be replaced at least 20 times during the lifetime of a LED fixture. Providing that the cost of specialized tubes for reef lighting can be quite high, a LED fixture can provide significant savings; e.g., not only monetary, but also of the time that was to be spent for acquisition and replacement of light bulbs.

Let us try to calculate the possible savings from using a LED fixture. A 300W LED fixture can replace a 900W T5 fixture used on a 160 gallon SPS reef tank. In 10 years the LED fixture will save ((900-300)/1000)*12*365*10=26280KWh of electric power. The cost of electricity depends on where you live, how much you use, and possibly when you use it and the rates from the same provider can range from 12c to 50c per kWh [17]. For our estimate we shall use a sample rate of 15c per kWh, which is a reasonable example (you can find out how much you are actually paying for electric power by looking at your bill). Based on the 15c per KWH example, the fixture will save you $3942 in power alone. If we take the average cost of a specialized 80W T5 bulb to be around $25, we shall additionally save $25*10*20=$5000 in bulb replacements. Your total savings in 10 years will be about $8942. This is a "best scenario" estimate and we did not consider many additional expenses - for example, the cost of an aquarium chiller to remove the excessive heat from the tanks, as well as energy costs related to its operation. Besides, there are non-monetary values - such as the comfort of not having to provide maintenance on a light fixture in 10 years! Thus far, direct savings during the operational period are quite a few times higher than the cost of even most expensive LED fixture. In other words, not only you are getting it free, but it will even bring you some profit in its lifetime!
http://www.advancedaquarist.com/2012/10/aafeature

so buy enough to run them at 50% initially and you are set for life..........(minor sarcasm actually)
Best case 54.8 years..

OK my apologies.. Not trying to discourage you..it is an important topic but more for "systems" than diodes...
got a wee bit carried away..
Problem is w/ tech advancing.. you need to test new fixtures for a year or 2......
Any that "fail" prior to this are poor designs and inferior parts.
 
Last edited:
I see you added something from a thread in RC and that is what I was looking for :) thank you
I know. I eventually get around to stuff..

for the true geeks..
https://www.digikey.com/en/articles...g-the-cause-of-fading-in-high-brightness-leds

In summary
The most common cause of failure for high-brightness LEDs is dimming over an extended period to the point that the light is no longer sufficient for its intended purpose. The primary cause of this loss of output is a reduction in quantum efficiency as dislocations in the chip’s crystal structure increase adding to the number of sites where non-radiative recombination can occur.

LED chipmakers are working hard to reduce the number of defects in the devices when new, but semiconductor manufacturing processes are not perfect and there will always some faults. The most important factor under the control of the design engineer that does influence longevity is junction temperature. Operating the LED according to the manufacturer’s thermal guidelines will reduce the rate of crystal degradation and ensure a long and bright operating life.
 
But yes leds grow Corals.... just would like to see actually data from a user that takes par reading to see if they loose par at the same intensity over time....

Like I said I’m beginning to think nobody cares as they just buy new ones and not saving money.

I can change my colors by simply putting a different color of bulb on...
I care... Ive been using black box LEDs for about five years. At 10000 hours the blues are wore out and actually blackening the resin. At 15000 hours the white emitters are wore out and doing the same. I spend about a half hour per channel rebuilding each (8) fixture each winter. It costs about 10 to rebuild each fixture fully over the two years. One year, its the blue channels and the next, its the white channels.
 
This tank has only ever been under LEDs.

FWIW i am not in the group that just buys new units every 2 years.

I plan to use my Hydra 52s until they no longer produce the light i need which is around 230 PAR at 1 ft dept when set to my custom blue mode. They are 2 yrs old and show no signs of degradation.
I have a pair of 4 year old A360ws..the originals which have maybe Maybe 10% drop and one over heats and shuts off above 85%, but ill bet i can still get years out of it yet.

Back to the discussion of the PAR meter.

The apogee 200 which is what my PMK is based on does on fact read about 30 or 40 points too low with LEDs set to a predominant blue spectrum.

To amend my previous post, this would mean a true par levels are off somewhat.

When i say i am measuring 220 to 250 par when set to 18k, 20k or my custom settings those true par levels are 260 to 290....and in my custom blue you can probably add another 10 par so 270 to 300.

Now thats not the case on 10 to 14k as that meter over estimates whites. So if im getting 350par on 12k it is probably closer to 380 or 390.

The newer appogee has this problem corrected and if neptune ever offers a compatible probe upgrade that works with the pmk i would get it.

You can read all about it on reef builders.

As i said, at 12k most LEDs run all the diodes so the power must be turned way down to 40% or so. When running mostly blue spectrum the whites aren't running so power levels running 65% to 75% is common.

Since i have 7 units on a 6ft tank i dont go much above 50% even on blues.

The longevity and PAR drop info from a single user might not be helpful as the data for longevity will also be highly variable and dependant on how the units were run.

b575a9b62e3da6b431dde7c80241baf7.jpg
 

IF YOU HAD TO TAKE A REEFING EXAM, WOULD YOU PASS?

  • Yes!

    Votes: 32 45.7%
  • Not yet, but I have one that I want to buy in mind!

    Votes: 9 12.9%
  • No.

    Votes: 26 37.1%
  • Other (please explain).

    Votes: 3 4.3%
Back
Top