Long time hard pipe plumber will never do it again.

[Fritzhamer]

I should have titled this: “50% reduction in wattage by switching from hard plumbed to soft tube plus hard plumbed.” The spoiler here is that by replacing only two feet of hard plumbed pipe in my return to soft tube I reduced my wattage by 50% and increased my total flow. See below.

So I’ve been reefing since the days of the Skilter. I always used soft tube until in the sometime in the early 2000s Melev posted pics of his hard plumbed mag pump closed loop. From that day forward I always hard plumbed everything and loved it.

Fast forward to today and I have an Apex themed color scheme on my hard plumbing with sexy turns and sweeping transitions. It almost as pretty as the tank.

The other night at 11pm (you probably see where this is going by the time) I decided to redo the the plumbing. It was one inch pipe from the pump, through a flow sensor then halfway up it transitioned to 3/4”. I was running the pump at 75% or so and my aim was to get the same flow at lower wattage.

Of course I’m 99% done and realize that I’m short one sch80 coupling. No problem, it’ll be ugly but I should have a sch 40 coupling. Nope. Maybe I can use two 45 degree elbows, Nope there as well. I add in a union but, not thinking, there isn’t enough clearance for the union to fit. I cut out all the plumbing.

I redo it again (differently using what I have) and again I’m short a coupling. Totally screwed now and now it’s 12:30am. I leave the return off and decide to figure it out tomorrow.

Even being in NYC sch80 fittings are hard to come by, at least for reasonable prices. BRS will take a week to get them to me. I decided to just (hate to say it) use braided tube from the pump to PVC return up over the side.

The long story short is that now I’m getting more flow at literally less than HALF the wattage. I’ve effectively doubled the output of my pump and the entire run is 3/4” and there are two barb fittings! By my estimations I’ve cut out an elbow or two using the tube but it should be a wash due to the restrictive barb fittings and the entire run being 3/4”.

I gotta say that I don’t think I’ll ever hard plumb a return again. The actual head loss is substantial compared to the “direct path” that tube provides. I was pretty blown away. I haven’t plumbed the flow sensor in and don’t plan to as the over the side PVC is really hidden and color matched. There isn’t room where the return is to plumb the flow sensor in and it would look funny. It’s a shame because I’d love the data on exactly the difference in GPH/wattage hard plumbed vs tube. I had to open my gate valve a half turn or so to get a trickle from the emergency drain, this is after dropping the return pump from 75% to 32%.

 

[DCR]

I suspect that removing the flow sensor had far more effect than the change to tubing.

 

[LobsterOfJustice]

It’s the flow sensor for sure. Desperately trying to figure out how to cleanly get all of mine uninstalled without major re-plumbing.

 

[Fritzhamer]

I thought that too as a possibility. I assumed it would be restrictive but that’s an awful lot of restriction. I hadn’t counted on it being that high but I guess that makes sense, it being a paddle wheel design.

 

[cvrle1]

Oh man, I remember Skilter. I had a 250 i think in my 1st saltwater tank. Come to think of it, i think I still have it in one of the boxes in the storage haha. Good luck with your plumbing issue, I cant offer no help at all.

 

[ca1ore]

Yeah, the apex flow sensors are really restrictive. I ended up going up a size as a result. Using the 2" sensor on my main return for example. I will say though that I've mostly replaced all the hard PVC in my system with flex PVC. It has all the advantages of vinyl tube without any of the disadvantages (mostly barb fittings).

 

[jasonrusso]

My first tank was hard piped. The 90 degree elbows killed the flow. Now I use 3/4" nylon reinforced for the return and 1 1/4" pool hose for the overflows.

 

[Fritzhamer]

My first tank was hard piped. The 90 degree elbows killed the flow. Now I use 3/4" nylon reinforced for the return and 1 1/4" pool hose for the overflows.

I'm sure that's part of it too. I cut out three 90 degree elbows by switching to the two foot run of braided tube.

 

[Dr. Dendrostein]

I should have titled this: “50% reduction in wattage by switching from hard plumbed to soft tube plus hard plumbed.” The spoiler here is that by replacing only two feet of hard plumbed pipe in my return to soft tube I reduced my wattage by 50% and increased my total flow. See below.

So I’ve been reefing since the days of the Skilter. I always used soft tube until in the sometime in the early 2000s Melev posted pics of his hard plumbed mag pump closed loop. From that day forward I always hard plumbed everything and loved it.

Fast forward to today and I have an Apex themed color scheme on my hard plumbing with sexy turns and sweeping transitions. It almost as pretty as the tank.

The other night at 11pm (you probably see where this is going by the time) I decided to redo the the plumbing. It was one inch pipe from the pump, through a flow sensor then halfway up it transitioned to 3/4”. I was running the pump at 75% or so and my aim was to get the same flow at lower wattage.

Of course I’m 99% done and realize that I’m short one sch80 coupling. No problem, it’ll be ugly but I should have a sch 40 coupling. Nope. Maybe I can use two 45 degree elbows, Nope there as well. I add in a union but, not thinking, there isn’t enough clearance for the union to fit. I cut out all the plumbing.

I redo it again (differently using what I have) and again I’m short a coupling. Totally screwed now and now it’s 12:30am. I leave the return off and decide to figure it out tomorrow.

Even being in NYC sch80 fittings are hard to come by, at least for reasonable prices. BRS will take a week to get them to me. I decided to just (hate to say it) use braided tube from the pump to PVC return up over the side.

The long story short is that now I’m getting more flow at literally less than HALF the wattage. I’ve effectively doubled the output of my pump and the entire run is 3/4” and there are two barb fittings! By my estimations I’ve cut out an elbow or two using the tube but it should be a wash due to the restrictive barb fittings and the entire run being 3/4”.

I gotta say that I don’t think I’ll ever hard plumb a return again. The actual head loss is substantial compared to the “direct path” that tube provides. I was pretty blown away. I haven’t plumbed the flow sensor in and don’t plan to as the over the side PVC is really hidden and color matched. There isn’t room where the return is to plumb the flow sensor in and it would look funny. It’s a shame because I’d love the data on exactly the difference in GPH/wattage hard plumbed vs tube. I had to open my gate valve a half turn or so to get a trickle from the emergency drain, this is after dropping the return pump from 75% to 32%.

In refrigeration we get the same effect with vapor gas and liquid refrigerant.

 

[KrisReef]

I've been putting off installing a new main return and now I am re-thinking the new manifold. Thanks for posting!

 

[rcmike]

Using 3/4" will restrict your flow quite a bit on these low pressure systems. If you used 3/4" Sch 80 pipe that restricts it even more since it has the same outside diameter but a smaller inside diameter. I'm sure if you used appropriately sized pipe and avoided unnecessary elbows you would have had the same results.

Also, if you have less restriction now and your pump is pumping more water it should be using more power. If you have a valve on the output start closing it down and watch the amperage. It should decrease as the valve is closed.

 

[jasonrusso]

Using 3/4" will restrict your flow quite a bit on these low pressure systems. If you used 3/4" Sch 80 pipe that restricts it even more since it has the same outside diameter but a smaller inside diameter. I'm sure if you used appropriately sized pipe and avoided unnecessary elbows you would have had the same results.

Also, if you have less restriction now and your pump is pumping more water it should be using more power. If you have a valve on the output start closing it down and watch the amperage. It should decrease as the valve is closed.

I disagree with this. A free flowing system will allow the pump to run with less stress meaning lower current consumption.

The pump wants to spin at the same speed a the time. Is there is back pressure, the impeller will have to "push" harder causing the pump drive to work harder.

This is how pinch protection works on a car window. If something gets in the way and slows the motor, current increases and the module detects it.

 

[rcmike]

I disagree with this. A free flowing system will allow the pump to run with less stress meaning lower current consumption.

The pump wants to spin at the same speed a the time. Is there is back pressure, the impeller will have to "push" harder causing the pump drive to work harder.

It is proven. Not just basing it on my thoughts. If you restrict this type of pump the amps will drop.

Interestingly enough the first link I found when searching to find some info to link to is to a product that we use in some applications when we install well pumps.
https://cyclestopvalves.com/pages/choking-the-flow-from-a-pump-makes-it-work-easier

 

[Diznaster]

I'm a bit OCD about things being square and tidy, so I probably could not switch to flex hose. Flex hose should in theory reduce friction loss on bends. If you look at head loss calculators online you can see what fittings do. That said they are somewhat generic (at least the free online ones) and don't account for schedule and sweep radius. If you look hard you can find "Long Sweep" fittings with a much larger bend radius. Also going a size bigger has a huge effect. If you upsize the pipe from your pump output it will help more than reducing fitting count, long sweeps, flex hose, etc... You could even choke it down briefly with a flow monitor and still gain from bigger pipe. It seems weird, but it isn't a "weakest link in the chain" thing. It is cumulative friction loss (mostly). Your flow monitor was probably a major friction point though, it probably chokes down inside diameter below its "pipe size" and that's before the friction of the wheel. Schedule 80 is going to choke the flow even more, and overkill for something with almost no pressure. But if someone likes flex hose and doesn't get anxiety looking at it in their tank. I say go for it, I'm happy for them because it is easier.

 

[rcmike]

I'm a bit OCD about things being square and tidy, so I probably could not switch to flex hose. Flex hose should in theory reduce friction loss on bends. If you look at head loss calculators online you can see what fittings do. That said they are somewhat generic (at least the free online ones) and don't account for schedule and sweep radius. If you look hard you can find "Long Sweep" fittings with a much larger bend radius. Also going a size bigger has a huge effect. If you upsize the pipe from your pump output it will help more than reducing fitting count, long sweeps, flex hose, etc... You could even choke it down briefly with a flow monitor and still gain from bigger pipe. It seems weird, but it isn't a "weakest link in the chain" thing. It is cumulative friction loss (mostly). Your flow monitor was probably a major friction point though, it probably chokes down inside diameter below its "pipe size" and that's before the friction of the wheel. Schedule 80 is going to choke the flow even more, and overkill for something with almost no pressure. But if someone likes flex hose and doesn't get anxiety looking at it in their tank. I say go for it, I'm happy for them because it is easier.

Right. I never understood why everyone wants Sch 80 for aquarium plumbing. It is definitely overkill for that and more restrictive.

Also, different types of pipe and tubing are measured differently. 3/4" PVC, PEX, tubing, etc. all have different internal diameters.

 

[Diznaster]

It is proven. Not just basing it on my thoughts. If you restrict this type of pump the amps will drop.

That's interesting I think maybe the OP has a variable DC pump and is matching flow (visually by overflow capacity). I'd bet that if I dropped my plumbing from 1.5" to 3/4" I would need to increase the PWM output speed of the DC driver to get the same flow. A higher PWM output is absolutely going to use more power at a higher duty cycle. Conversely if OP reduced restriction they would be able to turn down the PWM for the same flow.

It is also possible that our aquarium pumps are not quite designed like well pumps. Our pumps tend to have weak pressure and high flow. Well pumps have a huge pressure capacity, so that could be a difference. Aquarium pumps have much less pressure capacity, so the advantage of increased head pressure vs. gravity might not work the same. I have a buddy that is a pump engineer, next time we have a beer I'll try to remember to ask him (I'll probably forget by then).

Also, different types of pipe and tubing are measured differently. 3/4" PVC, PEX, tubing, etc. all have different internal diameters.

Yes, this never ceases to make me angry. Why did people decided to measure pipe based on the outer diameter?

 

[rcmike]

I actually went and verified it on my Jebao pump. I turned it to maximum speed and closed the valve while plugged into a kill-a-watt meter. It decreased amperage slightly while closing the valve. It isn't as pronounced as with larger pumps but it does drop when restricted.

Oh, and the measurements aren't the O.D. of the pipe either usually. I'm not sure who came up with the system for measuring pipe but they must have been drunk at the time.

 

[Fritzhamer]

This is all fantastic information. I went with sch 80 fittings and orange sch 40 pipe for aesthetic reasons. It’s a Cor-20 which probably explains the orange and grey color scheme under my tank. I think having a couple 90s and the flow sensor just adds a ton of head pressure, the sch 80 fittings certainly didn’t help. I should add that in addition to the hose I replumbed the return in sch 40.

I did consider using the sweeping sch80 90 degree elbows in the electrical section of the big box stores. The grey for the electrical sch 80 is very light compared to the traditional dark grey of the sch 80 fittings available online so I went with those. I imagine some of the gorgeous, but winding manifolds people have are greatly decreasing the overall output vs using say a single small pump to feed reactors.

 

[Diznaster]

I actually went and verified it on my Jebao pump. I turned it to maximum speed and closed the valve while plugged into a kill-a-watt meter. It decreased amperage slightly while closing the valve. It isn't as pronounced as with larger pumps but it does drop when restricted.

Nice to see a theory tested without a bunch of other variables. I believe choking flow at the same pump setting reduces power usage. It makes sense, not intuitively, but after thought it does. I think it really boils down to flow rate, which is what we mostly care about. If the OP was able to turn down the pump speed to keep the same flow after reducing friction loss (head) that would explain the energy savings. Reducing friction loss and keeping the same pump speed while also increasing flow and simultaneously reducing energy does not seem to make sense. That's inline with what I think the cycle stop valve it trying to do. It's goal is to reduce flow but maintain or even increase pressure when water demand is minimal in a house. It can do that and save energy. We don't need pressure aside from lifting from gravity. We are not using tiny orifices like shower heads.

 

[Diznaster]

double post, arg