Maintenance bacteria

[Charley]

What the reefing community is trying to say is that 'maintenance bacteria' is a fad and unnecessary, so save your money. Question is who are you going to believe? Experienced aquarists with nothing to gain or commercial entities?

A properly set up reef aquarium will already have a diverse bacterial community that continuously balances and renews itself. If you need an example as proof, my small nano has been running for nearly 12 years without any additives and my latest Aquabiomics bacterial report shows a very diverse bacteria community that is comparable to a typical 2-3 year old established system.

Was not aware of Aquabiomics. Will definitely give it a look a most likely test...thanks!

Pretty much, in your intended application

As mentioned above, once the bacteria in your tank have started to populate all of your solid surfaces, their populations will wax and wane as their fuel does the same.

Interesting....if I loaded my gut with alot of good bacteria wouldn't that be a good thing? Why wouldn't that apply to a reef tank? So you are saying that too much good bacteria or some kind of overload of good bacteria from these products would do more harm than good. Seems illogical.

 

[Charley]

Think about this Charley;
If the bacteria was required as an ongoing additive, wouldn't ALL of us would be talking about adding it as part of our dosing regimes, just the same as dosing for corals?

Well that's the big question, should we? Maybe not at all required but does it improve?

 

[Greg P]

Was not aware of Aquabiomics. Will definitely give it a look a most likely test...thanks!

Interesting....if I loaded my gut with alot of good bacteria wouldn't that be a good thing? Why wouldn't that apply to a reef tank? So you are saying that too much good bacteria or some kind of overload of good bacteria from these products would do more harm than good. Seems illogical.

Once the bacteria are introduced, unless you remove them through some antibiotic method, they stay forever.
Drinking/eating so-called 'probiotic' stuff is just more 'snakeoil'
You either have the bacteria, or you don't. They don't go away unless you kill them off.

 

[HNR]

Was not aware of Aquabiomics. Will definitely give it a look a most likely test...thanks!

Interesting....if I loaded my gut with alot of good bacteria wouldn't that be a good thing? Why wouldn't that apply to a reef tank? So you are saying that too much good bacteria or some kind of overload of good bacteria from these products would do more harm than good. Seems illogical.

No ones saying it's necessarily bad for your tank. What people are trying to say is that most bacterial products are used at the start of a new tank in order to speed up the cycle. One a population is established they are able to continuously repopulate and even increase in numbers as nutrients become more available. Thats how bacteria work. They only way you'll lose the either population is through some kind of treatment or complete crash of the system. There's no point in added the same strain of bacteria over and over again once they have established. Think about fecal transplants. People get them when some kind of medication completely destroys the bacteria in their guts and intestines so they need a fecal transplant to introduce a starter culture of bacteria. However you wouldn't get a fecal transplant if your gut bacteria is still alive and repopulating. I will say though vibrant is a different strain of bacteria than denitrifying bacteria and is designed to combate algae rather than keep the system cycled. So if you want to add that into your maintenance go right ahead.

 

[Greg P]

Well that's the big question, should we? Maybe not at all required but does it improve?

Adding bacteria that aren't currently present can change the balance, and things will eventually balance out. During the transition, you'll see changes - good or bad - until the balance of power is settled.
This is why many see 'changes' when they add a bacterial supplement. Doesn't mean it was a good or bad thing, just a change in power.
Once it's done though, it's done. There's no need to add more.

 

[Charley]

No ones saying it's necessarily bad for your tank. What people are trying to say is that most bacterial products are used at the start of a new tank in order to speed up the cycle. One a population is established they are able to continuously repopulate and even increase in numbers as nutrients become more available. Thats how bacteria work. They only way you'll lose the either population is through some kind of treatment or complete crash of the system. There's no point in added the same strain of bacteria over and over again once they have established. Think about fecal transplants. People get them when some kind of medication completely destroys the bacteria in their guts and intestines so they need a fecal transplant to introduce a starter culture of bacteria. However you wouldn't get a fecal transplant if your gut bacteria is still alive and repopulating. I will say though vibrant is a different strain of bacteria than denitrifying bacteria and is designed to combate algae rather than keep the system cycled. So if you want to add that into your maintenance go right ahead.

How many good strains of "other than denitrifying bacteria" are there. How many good strains of good bacteria should exist in a reef tank. Do the good strains compete with each other or do they co exist? If they do not co exist how do we know which is best? If they do co exist why not add as many as possible?

 

[Daddy-o]

I added a couple different brands of bottled bacteria. I carbon dose to feed bacteria and I really believe it is important part of a diverse reef. I also add pods regularly and feed heavily. With large bacteria colonies growing I have no GHA and all of my corals are happy. Some may say it is a waste but I spent less on bacteria than I did on my frag of Home Wrecker. I also dont have any dinos and the bacteria has out competed my cyano and now the cyano is gone. Perhaps the pods and coral eat the bacterial blooms that I can see and maybe they dont. I do know that when the skimmer is full, there is a lot of bacteria in there pulling out a lot of nitrate and phosphate.
Cheers! Mark

 

[Charley]

I added a couple different brands of bottled bacteria. I carbon dose to feed bacteria and I really believe it is important part of a diverse reef. I also add pods regularly and feed heavily. With large bacteria colonies growing I have no GHA and all of my corals are happy. Some may say it is a waste but I spent less on bacteria than I did on my frag of Home Wrecker. I also dont have any dinos and the bacteria has out competed my cyano and now the cyano is gone. Perhaps the pods and coral eat the bacterial blooms that I can see and maybe they dont. I do know that when the skimmer is full, there is a lot of bacteria in there pulling out a lot of nitrate and phosphate.
Cheers! Mark

Ok, now I hear alot of these types of stories too. The success stories and alot from those growing out alot of big frag tanks.....

 

[Greg P]

I guess there are many papers out there on beneficial bacteria that you could start reading.
Personally, my tank has done well for many years without adding any, aside from what grew naturally when I started my tank. Just RO water and salt mix, some Stability, and let the inhabitants poop away.

 

[Daddy-o]

One thing that puzzled me was if the bacteria that that we cycled with was efficient why do we get reefs that have elevated nitrate levels? Shouldnt these bacterial colonies grow larger to consume the nitrate? Then we add carbon to a reef, and it seems to me that it feeds another completely different bacteria strain? This second colony can grow as large as we want with feeding a steady carbon source. And with skimming we can use it to keep nitrates/phosphates in check.

 

[sde1500]

One thing that puzzled me was if the bacteria that that we cycled with was efficient why do we get reefs that have elevated nitrate levels? Shouldnt these bacterial colonies grow larger to consume the nitrate? Then we add carbon to a reef, and it seems to me that it feeds another completely different bacteria strain? This second colony can grow as large as we want with feeding a steady carbon source. And with skimming we can use it to keep nitrates/phosphates in check.

Denitrifying bacteria operating in an anaerobic environment is much less common than what much of the bacteria in our tanks are. Carbon sources help provide a missing food source for the tank, and allow bacteria to populate beyond what they normally would.

So pretty you are saying the bacteria companies are selling snake oil? I find that hard to believe

Why? It is widely understood that there is no real “reef safe” cure for ich. Now google “reef safe ich cure” and check out how much you can buy. If that makes your head hurt, I can get you in touch with some ladies that can hook you up with some essential oils that would help I’m sure.
Bottled bacteria helped me cycle my rank faster. I can’t see a reason I’d need to keep adding it. I can see many reasons why a company would encourage you to do so.

 

[Daddy-o]

Corals do in fact eat bacteria.

 

[Jeeperz]

Once the bacteria are introduced, unless you remove them through some antibiotic method, they stay forever.
Drinking/eating so-called 'probiotic' stuff is just more 'snakeoil'
You either have the bacteria, or you don't. They don't go away unless you kill them off.

That is completely wrong info and misguided. Your gut flora can become out of whack due to a lot of reasons, one of which is antibiotics, but it is not the only one. Food, stress, meds(non antibiotics), even water can negatively affect it. A huge portion of the human immune system comes from good gut bacteria which can be improved by probiotics. Please do not spread mis information without knowing what you are talking about

 

[fermentedhiker]

One thing I notice about a lot of these bacteria threads lately is people conflating adding bacteria for biodiversity with dosing bacteria for nutrient reduction/algae control. Two completely different subjects. Wasteaway, zeobak, vibrant etc... do not persist in our tanks and so do not add to the diversity of the ecosystem. While they certainly might disrupt the balance temporarily I don't think most people who are advocating for biodiversity are thinking along those lines. There is enough information out there to prove that at least some of these products aren't "snake oil" in the sense of fake or fraudulent products(the waste digesters that is). They are a legitimate method for nutrient control just as carbon dosing and live phyto dosing can be for different people with different setups. Whether they are worth the cost is another question entirely. Personally I'm inclined to think they aren't if for no other reason than carbon dosing being so much cheaper.

 

[Greg P]

That is completely wrong info and misguided. Your gut flora can become out of whack due to a lot of reasons, one of which is antibiotics, but it is not the only one. Food, stress, meds(non antibiotics), even water can negatively affect it. A huge portion of the human immune system comes from good gut bacteria which can be improved by probiotics. Please do not spread mis information without knowing what you are talking about

Never meant to mislead anyone.
I'll just bow out

 

[Daddy-o]

Never meant to mislead anyone.
I'll just bow out

Please stay!!!!!!!!!!

 

[Charley]

Never meant to mislead anyone.
I'll just bow out

No reason to bow out....just a discussion, we are all sharing, asking questions & learning. It's just as fascinating as it thoroughly confusing.

 

[Jeeperz]

One thing I notice about a lot of these bacteria threads lately is people conflating adding bacteria for biodiversity with dosing bacteria for nutrient reduction/algae control. Two completely different subjects. Wasteaway, zeobak, vibrant etc... do not persist in our tanks and so do not add to the diversity of the ecosystem. While they certainly might disrupt the balance temporarily I don't think most people who are advocating for biodiversity are thinking along those lines. There is enough information out there to prove that at least some of these products aren't "snake oil" in the sense of fake or fraudulent products(the waste digesters that is). They are a legitimate method for nutrient control just as carbon dosing and live phyto dosing can be for different people with different setups. Whether they are worth the cost is another question entirely. Personally I'm inclined to think they aren't if for no other reason than carbon dosing being so much cheaper.

I agree. One of my tanks has a massive gha outbreak after a move and sandbed removal. Tried h2o2 at double dose, no improvement. Have been culturing phyto and dosing that, no real improvement that I can see but I now have pods on the glass that I didn't before and an excess of phyto. I'm hesitant to try fluconazole or vibrant. I do add a bit of stability or biospira with each weekly water change. I am manually plucking a bunch of GHA 2x weekly which has the biggest impact.

This is why I'm interested in purchasing some LR&R rock or TBS rock and adding to my tank after a couple month qt. Just to see if real ocean bacteria can help my issues with diversity, tank was started with caribsea and biospira.

 

[Daddy-o]

I remember listening to a radio show last year and they were saying the probiotics that they try to get you to buy in products like yogurt, may or may not benefit you because there are so many different strains and you may need one that is different?

 

[Daddy-o]

I agree. One of my tanks has a massive gha outbreak after a move and sandbed removal. Tried h2o2 at double dose, no improvement. Have been culturing phyto and dosing that, no real improvement that I can see but I now have pods on the glass that I didn't before and an excess of phyto. I'm hesitant to try fluconazole or vibrant. I do add a bit of stability or biospira with each weekly water change. I am manually plucking a bunch of GHA 2x weekly which has the biggest impact.

This is why I'm interested in purchasing some LR&R rock or TBS rock and adding to my tank after a couple month qt. Just to see if real ocean bacteria can help my issues with diversity, tank was started with caribsea and biospira.

We tried live phyto, what a mess!! It started growing out of control and everything was covered in brown slime - never again.