Marine Pure blocks Aluminum

[mattshell81]

I posted in here before worried about my chemistry being off because of low nutrients and starving my sps but turns out that wasn't the case. My water analysis has come back and the only thing really out of wack on the entire this is an elevated level of aluminum and the only thing I had recently added was marine pure blocks I got from algae barn. Looking into this I see a lot of other than had the same issue.

 

[tautog83]

Is your tank actually having problems? There is like 50 threads about this, if ya feel like you're not comfortable with it you can slowly remove them and try another product like new polyp lab genesis bricks.( 3 OR 5 other kinds too) I guess it's still up in the air if it actually leaches aluminum. I've seen guys with like 4 giant plates in their tank and no elevated aluminum but I've also seen the opposite .

 

[mattshell81]

Is your tank actually having problems? There is like 50 threads about this, if ya feel like you're not comfortable with it you can slowly remove them and try another product like new polyp lab genesis bricks.( 3 OR 5 other kinds too) I guess it's still up in the air if it actually leaches aluminum. I've seen guys with like 4 giant plates in their tank and no elevated aluminum but I've also seen the opposite .

Only having issues with certain sps. This was the only thing that changed and all other levels came back fine other than slightly low iodine. I'm not even sure that's an amount of aluminum that would harm things but then again water could be been changed and levels lowred by the time I got the icp. The blocks are now in a macro algae and softy nano and they seem unphased.

 

[JMetaxas]

I don’t understand why people feel the need to add these bio-bricks to their tanks?

 

[tautog83]

I don’t understand why people feel the need to add these bio-bricks to their tanks?

Do you understand what they do ? It's about providing surface area for beneficial bacteria to grow. One 4x4x1 brick is equivalent to forget about how many pounds of live rock in terms of surface area. So some people dont want to add 150lbs of rock to their 100 gallon tank to provide the surface area for proper filtration so they add blocks, plates, to make up for it.

 

[Cell]

Here is a thread that may interest you.

Is Marine Pure effective at reducing nitrates? We learn some valuable lessons. | BRStv Investigates

I would like to see results with a sump packed with Marine Pure blocks. My meaning being a sort of extreme deep sand bed effect. Top layers with aerobic bacteria, and blocks 3 layers deep or so harboring anaerobic bacteria. Theoretically The top layers would have a faster water movement out of...

www.reef2reef.com

Got the Triton results back today. Again all of these tanks were fed close to identical amounts food, no other inputs and zero water changes over a couple month period of time. Pretty much confirms the results others have had. All of the marine pure tanks were significantly higher than the control.

Control with no marine pure 1.64 ug/l
Large marine pure block 51.00 ug/l
Marine pure plate 174 ug/l
Marine pure sphears 32.00 ug/l

I think we are in the same place. While there are some ideas it's not entirely clear why seemingly only a fraction of people have had issues. Could be a simple as the attention to rinsing. Could also be anecdotal and the aluminum isn't actually in a toxic or an available form in the tank. Could be just soft corals are impacted. Lots of different things. I think thought leaders like Randy Holmes-Farley have certainly demonstrated the potential toxicity of aluminum.

So I think the real question is why use marine pure at all? The primary reason was to add high-density filtration the tank but there are other ways to achieve that goal so I am not sure that is good enough considering the unknowns related to aluminum. The other reason is reefers claim rapid results lowering nitrates by simply adding this media to the tank. If it is really that easy I think that's pretty compelling. I have always had my doubts about the media's ability to do that and in this experiment, it certainly didn't seem to achieve that goal. We are working on a revision to that experiment in a bit more realistic envisionment. Hopefully in a few months we will be able to shed additional light on that. We are also curing multiple MP blocks prior so I think we will get a window into if this is an ongoing issue or an initial issue, potentially related to rinsing the duty fines from transport.

 

[mattshell81]

I don’t understand why people feel the need to add these bio-bricks to their tanks?

I think the main interest is for tanks with less rock work maybe or heavier bioload that want that extra surface area. In my case I got some pods and phyto from algaebarn to seed my macro algae nano and this came with it. The amount I got seemed like way too much for my nano so I tossed a few in my sump.

 

[JMetaxas]

I'd probably just put some more rock in my sump.

 

[rtparty]

Do they leach aluminum? Yes. Is it dangerous? No.

From what I gathered, aluminum oxide is present in almost all ceramic media. It is inert in our tanks and causes no problems. The ICP test just tells you a molecule is present but doesn't tell you what form that molecule is in. For example, is it bioavailable to the creatures in our tanks or is bonded to something else making it inert?

 

[DopamineKata]

I'd probably just put some more rock in my sump.

So you'd put something with less surface area in an area where space is at a preimum?

 

[mattshell81]

Do they leach aluminum? Yes. Is it dangerous? No.

From what I gathered, aluminum oxide is present in almost all ceramic media. It is inert in our tanks and causes no problems. The ICP test just tells you a molecule is present but doesn't tell you what form that molecule is in. For example, is it bioavailable to the creatures in our tanks or is bonded to something else making it inert?

Thank you this helps me out a lot. The only other things on the whole thing out of what were silicates that were there in my rodi but not crazy high and low iodine. Tank is an upgrade and it's is at a year and a half itself since the upgrade and I'm sure there's enough biodiversity for sps. My trident manages all my dosing and I double check it often do I know I'm not havi g swings so I recent got a par meter and checked my lighting so I'm going to assume the slow stn I was seeing was due to a lack of par. Before adjusting my kessils my sps at the top were only getting in the 100s now what's left alive of them are in the low 200s. I may need to add t5s or upgrade to stronger leds. This is only a 3 foot tank and my kessils are now maxed on power and only about 7 or 8 inches off the surface and not making much par.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley Verified Community Expert]

IMO, that level of aluminum is not enough to be a problem.

It might still be rising, but as is, it is not a must remove situation.

 

[mattshell81]

IMO, that level of aluminum is not enough to be a problem.

It might still be rising, but as is, it is not a must remove situation.

Here is my full results. Nothing else really stuck out to me as being way off. I was losing a lot of sps I was trying after 3 weeks of great polyp extension and color they would stn or rtn from all over. Things would die from tips, random spots on the dealer branches, and the bases. Only a few survived raise and through it all everything has been pretty stable with no major swings of nitrate, phosphate, alk, calc, or magnesium. The only thing I have done is dose enough nitrate to make sure it stays above 2 because I was getting a reading of 0 on my hannah. Even with low levels of po4 usually between .02 and .04 I was still getting turf algae slowly so I did dose flucanazole at the start of December but almost all reciews I have seen had no loss or only had loss due to nutrients spiking after algae die off which I didn't see. At this point I'm kinda just stumped because I have checked everything and did the icp thinking there must be some sort of pollutant causing this stn because my lps and anemones look great at the moment.

 

[bnord]

an N of one here, and anecdotes are not the plural of data.... but I had a spike of 570ppb of Al in a tank with Marine pure that was added for start up surface area. Had normal Al (35ppb) in a sister tank (same water source) that had no Marine pure. Was struggling with for leathers and Montis in the first tank, sister tank was flourishing.
Pulled out the cubes, many of which were crumbling, changed a lot of water, ran carbon and Purit and 2 successive ICPs are 37 and 40ppb.
I would stay away from them on the off chance you had a crumbly batch

 

[Hydrored]

Here is my full results. Nothing else really stuck out to me as being way off. I was losing a lot of sps I was trying after 3 weeks of great polyp extension and color they would stn or rtn from all over. Things would die from tips, random spots on the dealer branches, and the bases. Only a few survived raise and through it all everything has been pretty stable with no major swings of nitrate, phosphate, alk, calc, or magnesium. The only thing I have done is dose enough nitrate to make sure it stays above 2 because I was getting a reading of 0 on my hannah. Even with low levels of po4 usually between .02 and .04 I was still getting turf algae slowly so I did dose flucanazole at the start of December but almost all reciews I have seen had no loss or only had loss due to nutrients spiking after algae die off which I didn't see. At this point I'm kinda just stumped because I have checked everything and did the icp thinking there must be some sort of pollutant causing this stn because my lps and anemones look great at the moment.

Between fluc dose and if your nitrates were truly bouncing on zero it can take a few weeks for the impacts to show, I have shown around that amount of aluminum for over 2 years on all of my ICP's. I would not be concerned that the aluminum caused an issue.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley Verified Community Expert]

Here is my full results. Nothing else really stuck out to me as being way off. I was losing a lot of sps I was trying after 3 weeks of great polyp extension and color they would stn or rtn from all over. Things would die from tips, random spots on the dealer branches, and the bases. Only a few survived raise and through it all everything has been pretty stable with no major swings of nitrate, phosphate, alk, calc, or magnesium. The only thing I have done is dose enough nitrate to make sure it stays above 2 because I was getting a reading of 0 on my hannah. Even with low levels of po4 usually between .02 and .04 I was still getting turf algae slowly so I did dose flucanazole at the start of December but almost all reciews I have seen had no loss or only had loss due to nutrients spiking after algae die off which I didn't see. At this point I'm kinda just stumped because I have checked everything and did the icp thinking there must be some sort of pollutant causing this stn because my lps and anemones look great at the moment.

Salinity is a little low, and some trace elements might benefit from dosing (manganese, vanadium, maybe iodine).

 

[Mozza]

I posted in here before worried about my chemistry being off because of low nutrients and starving my sps but turns out that wasn't the case. My water analysis has come back and the only thing really out of wack on the entire this is an elevated level of aluminum and the only thing I had recently added was marine pure blocks I got from algae barn. Looking into this I see a lot of other than had the same issue.

I am doing my research on Aluminum after loosing 60% of my corals, Hammers, Acans, SPS. I could not find the problem as my parameters were good. So I sent out ATI ICP test. Everything came back within acceptable ranges BUT Aluminum 131, acceptable was 0.09. I then started trawling the internet and found some commonality with those using Marine Pure spheres and blocks. I had both of these in my sump and the spheres were in a turbulent over spill next to my refugium with the seaweed growing onto the media. I have since removed all the Marine Pure media leaving in my Eshopps ceramic bio media only. I have added Metasorb and done a 25 gallon water change twice over 10 days. Can anybody expand on these findings?? I dont have any other source of aluminum so hoping this fixes my problems.
Much appreciate any feed back. Thanks !

 

[ReeferSamster]

So you'd put something with less surface area in an area where space is at a preimum?

Liverock have more porosity and overall surface area internally and externally than all man made bricks or fake rock, specifically the ones from Fiji.

Check out the video below: comparisons of different type of natural live rock vs manmade fakerock vs bricks in terms of porosity, external and internal surface area. Fiji liverock topped them all. Do a quick click 10 minutes into the video to fast forward to the data.

You can tell that they were pretty honest with no biased commercialized agenda, because they actually only sell fake rock, not the natural live rock that won out in the comparison.



I wonder how live rock from the marshall islands would have compared. I bet it could be more porous than fiji. I cut one large piece in half for aquascaping and the amount of interconnected cells within the rock made it look like a solidified sponge with millions of microcells, deep into the live rock. At least I think it was marshall island rock.

It made sense, as natural live rock like this are made up of hundreds, if not thousands of years of dead coral skeletons in layers. There is a reason why the term "liverock" was coined when the reefing hobby started. Real live rock wasn't really rock at all, in the traditional sense. It was the beauty of ancient coral skeletons that allowed a myriad of organisms to live on top and within these ancient structures, as well.

I chopped a large 50lbs+ manmade "marco fake" rock in half and it was mostly solid with some isolated "bubbles" and a giant hole in the middle with uncured powder. It sprayed all over my face when I cut it open. There is no permeability into the isolated air pockets, nor in the giant hole in the middle of the rock filled with uncured "powder" .

Fake man-made live rock like that are for looks only (complete with purple painted fake coralline!) with just the basics of aerobic nitrite to nitrate conversion on the surface, with absolutely no capacity to finish the nitrogen cycle via anaerobic denitrification like natural live rock can.

You just can't beat mother nature. I purchased uncured rocks from fiji, vanatu, pukani, tonga, and marshall islands, coinciding with the theme of biodiversity of reekeeping. I still have those rocks 20 years later that have lasted longer than all my equipment and tank upgrades. Sadly, they have eroded alot and I think lost roughly 20% of their original size. Those manmade bricks you throw in the sump completely erode in just a few years. Fake marco manmade rock probably lasts the longest out of natural live rock or bricks, but do nothing to complete the nitrogen cycle.

I really dont understand the fake purple paint on fake rock. Why don't people just be patient and let natural coralline algae grow in time? At the risk of being judgemental, I think people who love the purple paint don't understand the real discipline in our hobby: PATIENCE . Natural, aged coralline comes in a myriad of hues in purples, reds and pinks. Its not just 1 tone of purple paint. It looks so fake!

You can still find natural live rock in bins of some LFS's when people tear down their tanks and give them away. Dry em and cook em and they are good to go. I'd rather have good ole natural fiji liverock over fake liverock or those nitrogen bricks any day.

Sorry for the thread hijacking attempt. I'm the notorious thread hijacker on reef2reef.

 

[Reefer Reboot]

I am doing my research on Aluminum after loosing 60% of my corals, Hammers, Acans, SPS. I could not find the problem as my parameters were good. So I sent out ATI ICP test. Everything came back within acceptable ranges BUT Aluminum 131, acceptable was 0.09. I then started trawling the internet and found some commonality with those using Marine Pure spheres and blocks. I had both of these in my sump and the spheres were in a turbulent over spill next to my refugium with the seaweed growing onto the media. I have since removed all the Marine Pure media leaving in my Eshopps ceramic bio media only. I have added Metasorb and done a 25 gallon water change twice over 10 days. Can anybody expand on these findings?? I dont have any other source of aluminum so hoping this fixes my problems.
Much appreciate any feed back. Thanks !

Just my experience, I set up my build with two 8"x8"x4" MarinePure bricks and 2Qt. box of spheres. My initial ICP test did show an elevated level of aluminum. As to whether the MarinePure was responsible for all of it, I can't say for certain as everything was new. I kept the MarinePure and use some Metasorb to pull out the aluminum. I have not had an elevated aluminum reading on any ICP since.
That's my experience, your mileage may vary.

 

[JMetaxas]

From everything I’ve read I’m amazed people still use these artificial bricks. Why not just put some rock in your swamp if you don’t think your tank itself will harbor enough bacteria.