Metal Halide - A fading technology?

[Murfman]

So the pricing for LEDs is too prohibitive, otherwise you'd move to them. That is another perspective.

Sticking with them until LEDs get cheaper. Thanks secretreefer

Hmmmm I paid $250 a piece for my units. Spend $200 just on ballasts when I ran MH, then another $130 for quality reflector and $75 (reeflux 12k bulbs)

 

[myzislow]

Yep - me too.

A key that is often overlooked is overpowering the coral with LEDs. I think it is a lot easier to do than everyone thinks. Once you light shock them, you make them susceptible to a lot of problems. With the PAR meter, I hope to replicate my T5 setup as close as possible (even less starting out). This will give me a good indication on growth.

Although I don't think I'm a lemming, I've been waiting for a couple years to jump on the bandwagon. I think with what I plan to do, I can have success. Only time will tell, though.

Well you do seem well prepared and you have obv put a lot of effort into researching LEDs. I wish you luck and am very interested to hear your experiences once you have had them for awhile.

 

[myzislow]

Really? Why?

Because he gets in very large, wild SPS colnies that need a ton of light to stay colored and the LEDs just cant keep up in that area. Nothing beats the PAR of properly matched bulb/ballast combo of a MH.....Well, maybe plasma but thats a whole other can of worms.

 

[ronnie]

We'll see. I'm bucking the trend a bit by not going with Cree - so it will definitely be a trial at best. Lots of naysayers about LEDs, and even more about non-Cree setups.

I'm not out to prove them wrong by any means, but I'm planning to see what the cheapie LEDs can do.

 

[ronnie]

Because he gets in very large, wild SPS colnies that need a ton of light to stay colored and the LEDs just cant keep up in that area. Nothing beats the PAR of properly matched bulb/ballast combo of a MH.....Well, maybe plasma but thats a whole other can of worms.

Lots of other factors besides lighting goes into that as well. Stable parameters, water quality, proper flow.... Plus wild SPS are a gamble at best anyways. I've never had luck with them, and have completely turned to aquacultured only.

 

[bct15]

I like my mh's, I've seen a few led tanks and like previously stated the only time the colors pop is when only the blues are on (especially Sps), everything looks boring under full spectrum. A fishstore i frequent uses LEDs to light there coral tank, the sps colonies look bland and boring, a month to two months under my MH and they are exploding with color (the stores parameters are almost identical to mine). Plus the polyps I get from there, double in diameter after moving to my MH lit tank, and the colors are just as nice, and I only use 15k mh right now with some t5's. In think LEDs have a place in the hobby but for accent and supplental lighting, IMO the best full day lighting is MH and I have not seen a tank in person running LEDs to change my mind yet...and I know no photo does a MH tank justice so i don't trust any photos. I have read many times and even spoken with one person who regrets making the full switch to all LEDs. Also, I live in MS with 100 plus summers and don't have to run a chiller or my ac set rediculous low to maintain a temp of 78.5 - 79, infact my heater runs regularly.

 

[myzislow]

Lots of other factors besides lighting goes into that as well. Stable parameters, water quality, proper flow.... Plus wild SPS are a gamble at best anyways. I've never had luck with them, and have completely turned to aquacultured only.

c'mon man I know this haha. I highly doubt if he were to throw LEDs over his SPS tanks that his colors would be as good or better than they are under MH. He is the biggest LED proponent in the Bay area and for him to not have them hanging over all of his SPS coral holding tanks says a lot IMO....

 

[ronnie]

I know YOU do. Others don't, though.

If you get a chance, ask him why he doesn't have LEDs on that tank and let me know his answer.

 

[myzislow]

I know YOU do. Others don't, though.

If you get a chance, ask him why he doesn't have LEDs on that tank and let me know his answer.

True, good info for sure!

I will defnitely ask him next time I'm up there.

 

[ronnie]

I often wonder if the other important factors that play into SPS success doesn't give LEDs a bad rap sometimes. I realize it would take a lot of factors for the timing to be there, but I'm betting it does happen.

A newer guy buys a nice LED fixture and then decides he wants to try his hand at some sticks - throws them in there only to watch them brown out.... Gotta be the lights, right? I mean, it isn't totally out in left field, right?

 

[Troylee]

I have tried them all and every thing has advantages and disadvantages... For me personally I will run the triple threat like I do with mh being the main source or mh only.... That's just me..

 

[secretreefer]

i already have the MH fixture. what i'm saying is that if a high quality 48" led fixture with cree leds was $357 right now (48" nova extreme pro T5 on amazon right now) i would pay it. A 24" kit of what i wanted off reefled came out to $848. I would need 2 of these to cover what a 48" T5 fixture can cover......I'm with Lee, i run the triple threat also.....:xd::xd:

Hmmmm I paid $250 a piece for my units. Spend $200 just on ballasts when I ran MH, then another $130 for quality reflector and $75 (reeflux 12k bulbs)

 

[myzislow]

A newer guy buys a nice LED fixture and then decides he wants to try his hand at some sticks - throws them in there only to watch them brown out.... Gotta be the lights, right? I mean, it isn't totally out in left field, right?

This situation is entirely plausible of course, and I'm sure it has happened so somebody.

There is a memeber named gasman059 on RC that has a very nice SPS dominated tank and has been in the hobby a very long time. He decided to switch to some of the higher end LED units and within 6 months or so he was already taking them down. His corals and colors suffered a lot after going to the LED units. He has a thread in the SPS forum sharing all of his experiences. I believe he was using the AI SOL or something like that.

 

[ronnie]

I've read his stuff - but I didn't see that thread. I'll go check it out.

I've not read up on the AI SOL units much. From what I know, they are pretty high end, though.

Off to do some reading!

 

[ksc]

One of the problems with LEDS is they really only "last" 2 years at most until their already inferior spectrum shifts. Newbies followed the hype when LEDs came out, as they did when PC's and T5's came out (I did too, on my smaller tank). Some day someone will create a lighting system that will beat my 250w Radiums, magnetic ballast, and VHO actinics on an old PFO ballast. They've been trying for over 20 years now....

 

[Bandomo]

This situation is entirely plausible of course, and I'm sure it has happened so somebody.

There is a memeber named gasman059 on RC that has a very nice SPS dominated tank and has been in the hobby a very long time. He decided to switch to some of the higher end LED units and within 6 months or so he was already taking them down. His corals and colors suffered a lot after going to the LED units. He has a thread in the SPS forum sharing all of his experiences. I believe he was using the AI SOL or something like that.

LOL, I followed Gasman's thread very carefully before purchasing 2 AI Sol Blues. Needless to say, now i'm running two Elos E-Powers 150watt HQI's. I actually switched back to MH before Gasman, I wasn't surprised that he soon followed. I highly recommend AI's if you're staying away from SPS and strictly sticking with LPS and Zoa's/Palys. Now this is very important, I'm not saying that LED's can't support SPS. I have see a FEW beautiful SPS tanks running on LED's, but the fixtures have been custom fitted with LED's other than just the White, Blue, and Royal Blues.

As of now, the reason I feel that there's so much debate regarding "what's better, MH, T5's, or LED's" is because it's clear that there's no one winning fixture. Each one has its strength and weaknesses...
MH = Produces a lot of heat and the bulbs are expensive to change. Expenses might increase with the need of a chiller. On the other hand, it delivers on spectrum, and the ability to grow any coral under the sun. For these reasons, I would highly disagree that MH's are a fading technology.
T5's = No Shimmer (very important to a lot of reefers. After all, our goal is to make our glass boxes look as natural as possible and having that shimmer effect is on the top of the list for manny hobbyist). Still produces some heat but can easily be resolved using a cooling fan, but will in tern increase evaporation (which makes things difficult when using Kalk in your ATO water). Bulbs are much cheaper when trying to achieve a certain spectrum (replacing one or two bulbs). However, when replacing all 6-8 bulbs on the fixture, its equally as expensive as when replacing MH bulbs.
LED's = By far has the most potential. No heat, great controllability (Apex, Profilux, etc), less frequent bulb replacement (however, when the time does come to replace the bulbs 3-4 years down the road, with the current prices of LED's, I believe that it'll roughly be the equivalent as if you had changed 2 HM bulbs ever year. It's definitely not going to be cheap replacing all the LED's of the AI fixtures when the time comes). On the other hand, I still think LED's fall short with SPS (just my opinion, well, and I guess Gasmans as well )

So, in summary, if there was a super fixture that's capable of producing very little heat, required less bulb exchanges, had great spectrum, has the shimmer effect, and is able to keep any coral under the sun, hands down would take the price. It wouldn't be a matter of "MH -- A Fading Technology" but more "MH, T5's, LED's -- A Fading Technology." For all the reasons stated above, I believe MH's will live to see another day.

 

[jendub]

Some things to consider:

MH - 2 bulbs for a roughly 3'X5' area replace every 6 months for radiums or 9-12 for others @ $75 per bulb
T5 - 8 bulbs for a roughly 3'X5' area replace every 9-12 months @ 15-20/bulb
LED- large up front cost; depending on electricity prices, chilling etc your power bill may offset this, in colder areas the heat from MH or T5 may need replaced with a heater so possibly no energy savings

LED's do last 30,000+ hours but like all light emitters they degrade with age and other components may fail first, I'd expect the fixture to need replacing every 3-5 years

So pop a calc on that

MH fixture/bulb/ballast + replacement bulbs over 5 years + electrical costs = total cost to own/run over that 5 year period


T5 fixture/bulbs + replacement bulbs over 5 years + electrical costs = total cost to own/run over that 5 year period

LED fixture + electrical costs = total cost to own/run over that 5 year period

 

[Rickyrooz]

That's just the thing; I have yet to see an LED equipped, SPS dominated tank, where the colors popped like they do under MH. Sure when they turn on just the blues the colors are there, but under the full spectrum LEDs the SPS look blah to me. This is of course just my opinion after viewing many LED tanks in person. Even Robert @ neptunes, who is HUGE LED proponent, still keeps his SPS for sale under the MHs to help keep their color....And he has more LEDs in his store than any place I've seen. If LEDs were so great and provided sustainable color in SPS then I'm sure he of all people would be using them....

Agreed, bonbon has a sweet LED set up but his SPS have a pale and drab look compared to an SPS tank under halides.
zeovit.com DTOTQ Second Quarter of 2011 - YouTube

 

[Tankguy001]

Ive used both MH and T5 sets on my tanks. Ive always liked the MH's because of the shimmering effect. A chiller is not neccesary with MH's. I lived in Vegas and used a fan blowing across the water and it worked fine. Cost was always an issue as replacing bulbs was expensive. Just recently I saw Troylees LED set up and loved it. Would strongly consider a similar setup

 

[ronnie]

So I've read through a lot of gasman's thread, and it seems like an awful lot of factors were rapidly changing throughout his few months of running LEDs. I'm not completely sold on the fact that it was totally his lights giving him troubles. I'm also not going to say 100% it wasn't, though.

Once I switch over to LEDs, I'll be sure to start a thread and document everything I can, regardless of success or failure.