Metal Halides are the bomb

[Bpb]

boy this one got heated again

 

[Graffiti Spot]

This thread is great and I probably posted a similar post earlier, but Oreo I don’t think you will ever understand where we (anyone that has used 10k or less halides mainly or a t5 tank with More than two white bulbs) are coming from. You think these bulbs don’t color up corals but your wrong. Now I am mainly talking about coloring acropora, any other coral tank can do just fine with led imo. The whiter bulbs provide amazing pigments that most led users struggle with, and honestly most led users think these bulbs make corals brown. Yea they might turn slightly brown for the period of time they are acclimating to the light but that changes and once the corals growing under the new light it will show new colors. Sure you can get some great color with leds but a lot of it is just fluorescent reflection and not actual pigment color. Most led users these days are even calling greens, yellows! What??? That’s green, “oh but it looked yellow in my tank”. The only led tanks I have seen look anything near halide tanks are people using 100% of their channels and hanging the lights high with many fixtures for coverage. This can get you some nice yellow acros, and some other nice hard to get colors, but halides take it a step further. Most led users that don’t run their fixtures at full power have some ok colors but every single one of them that added four t5 bulbs have seen much better results in, color, growth form and health. And, every single led user I have known that switched over to all t5 has had explosive growth and much better coloring in their acros. Now a lot of reefers that switch to led only get a growth spurt but then that stalls in a few months, often, and they just leave them and watch the corals slowly grow because colors are “popping”.
I still struggle to understand how people can enjoy their tanks with so much blue led blurring out what colors are really there. The reflection of the blue light does make for some cool looking corals but it’s just reflection. None of these oranges and yellows and blues you see in these tanks are actually there (for the most part). It’s all filters or colors reflecting blue light a certain way that looks orange, blue or yellow. And look, I am no lighting expert I am just trying to explain what I have seen, I am not familiar with all the lingo lighting guys use or keen on talking about lighting at all but I get tired of reading crud posts about how 10k halides grow brown corals. 10k halides actually color up blue, yellow and orange corals. These corals you can take outside and they will still show the same pigments as in the tank. Now take all these crazy blue led colored acros outside into the sunlight, not what you thought they were... Most blue acros from led tanks are actually purple. The best blues I have seen were from 10k halides and I have seen nothing else come close to pulling the same blue color in acros.
Now the electricity wasting part. Sure if you want a nice little mixed reef tank you can save some money with a single led fixture ran at a low percentage. If you have a bigger tank full of acropora and you strive for specific results in color and growth and like to keep the much harder to grow species then you won’t save a dime because you will need double the fixtures and to run them at 100%, all that’s been covered in this thread already.
That brings me to the much harder to keep acropora species. Monticulosa, humilis, abrotranoides, spathulata, samoensis and most all of these digitate acropora all struggle under the standard hobbiests led lighting. Some of the pros who run fixtures full power and are very experienced can keep them and color them. Most don’t even bother trying to keep them anymore and if they do they go straight to captive grown fragments they know will do well under their leds because they have been captive for years. Now anyone running a well ran acropora tank using the right halides can can have success with these acros and most anyone collecting them is going to be running a whiter spectrum and using halides or many t5 bulbs because they acclimate and transition to a tank best. In my opinion these species are the kind we should be striving to keep. Not these multicolored tenuis. We still don’t really know what’s best for these thick acros besides great flow and the best light you can provide but something else is missing because many still struggle to keep them.
Anyone remember when divers den was all halides? Look at their corals now. Some look OK and some they can’t even get to transition to their tanks without browning and stressing out completely. I wonder if they are second guessing the switch. If I were them I would rather have beautiful corals to sell.
In the end it’s all about what is best for you and what your trying to achieve. Sure most these days can get away with using led just fine, but if you want the hardest to keep acropora and the best colors and health anyone with experience keeping them will tell you to get halides or lots of t5 and use a whiter spectrum.

Sorry that was way longer than I thought and probably already posted something like it earlier but didn’t feel like searching to find it. Kinda don’t feel like posting it now but will anyways...

 

[X-37B]

Internals of my ati module are rusting pretty good but it still works.
Its only 4" off the surface.
Going to 2 lumen bright 250 watt de 14k MH's on my 120 with m80 ballasts..
Just need to get them mounted and fired up.
I have ran all types and just prefer MH.
Going to run 1 orpkek blue bar for morning and night.
Wish me luck, lol.

 

[Graffiti Spot]

Talking about metal halide / efficiency / colors/ 6500K Iwasaki bulbs.
Edit: What he didn't know back then is that the MH reflector actually distributes the light much better for the system as a whole in comparison to LEDs. That is actually a huge plus for the halides.

I am not sure why he thinks blue tort is not nice colored in natural sunlight. The blues on torts are the best in sunlight or white bulbs ime, crazy neon vibrant blues. He is right when he talks about the best tip colors coming from 6500k and the growth and thickness of the colonies.

 

[Graffiti Spot]

Internals of my ati module are rusting pretty good but it still works.
Its only 4" off the surface.
Going to 2 lumen bright 250 watt de 14k MH's on my 120.
Just need to get them mounted and fired up.
I have ran all types and just prefer MH.
Going to run 1 orpkek blue bar for morning and night.
Wish me luck, lol.

You won’t need luck I am using four orpek or2 bars with the two 400w ushios over my Rubbermaid tub and love them. I might have to raise the halides a little though. Or just let the few lower light acros struggle and see if they acclimate at some point.

 

[Bpb]

That brings me to the much harder to keep acropora species. Monticulosa, humilis, abrotranoides, spathulata, samoensis and most all of these digitate acropora all struggle under the standard hobbiests led lighting. Some of the pros who run fixtures full power and are very experienced can keep them and color them. Most don’t even bother trying to keep them anymore and if they do they go straight to captive grown fragments they know will do well under their leds because they have been captive for years. Now anyone running a well ran acropora tank using the right halides can can have success with these acros and most anyone collecting them is going to be running a whiter spectrum and using halides or many t5 bulbs because they acclimate and transition to a tank best. In my opinion these species are the kind we should be striving to keep. Not these multicolored tenuis....

just curious, but why should we as a collective hobby be focusing on keeping those species in particular? If you like them and enjoy keeping them, terrific, but why the over reach into others tank goals? i know MH users who don’t even grow sps at all, Several. A local down the block runs in excess of 1000 watts on his tank to grow brown photosynthetic gorgs exclusively.

arguing lighting tech is a direct parallel to arguing politics. Nobody’s mind will be changed. People will defend their own choice 99 times out of 100, and on the off chance a mind gets changed, it won’t be from forum post insistence. The problem people have is assuming every application is the same, and in cases like the post here I’m quoting, if the application is different, then the person moves the goal post to say “well your tank goals are wrong then”. That’s just nonsense.

Circling back around, if someone wants to keep a tank full of tenuis, there’s nothing wrong with that. Why do they have to keep exclusively abros and humis for their tank to be legitimate? If I misinterpreted I genuinely look forward to the clarification, but your post simply reads as one attacking someone else’s goal to defend your own preferred method. If as a hobby you believe we should strive for the most challenging things to keep, why stop at acropora. Surely many NPS and cold water corals are more challenging to keep than reef flat species right?

 

[pdxmonkeyboy]

Hmmm. I may jump down a color from 20k to 14k on my next bulb change.

 

[Bpb]

Hmmm. I may jump down a color from 20k to 14k on my next bulb change.

I know I greatly prefer the rendering of 14k to 20k. 20k is too dim and flat

 

[MJ in Boise]

What 14k bulb does everyone like? Keep hearing good things and want try one. Single end 400.

 

[Kfactor]

this thread makes me want to try mh over my frag tank

 

[mitch91175]

Don't know if this is something that has been mentioned about MH, but I notice I do not struggle with pH now that I am running MH. Before I was using a CO2 scrubber to get to 8.3. Same system only change going to MH and my pH hits over 8.3 daily (CO2 scrubber media has been exhausted for a while now).

This is what it's looking like once my MH schedule kicks on:

That sharp increase everyday around noon is when the MH start.

All of my coral seem pretty happy once the MH turn on. I've had a single head gold torch in the tank for about 2 years stayed a single head. Looks like in the next few month it'll be 4 heads.

 

[X-37B]

What 14k bulb does everyone like? Keep hearing good things and want try one. Single end 400.

1 Ushio 14k
2 Hamilton

 

[Graffiti Spot]

just curious, but why should we as a collective hobby be focusing on keeping those species in particular? If you like them and enjoy keeping them, terrific, but why the over reach into others tank goals? i know MH users who don’t even grow sps at all, Several. A local down the block runs in excess of 1000 watts on his tank to grow brown photosynthetic gorgs exclusively.

arguing lighting tech is a direct parallel to arguing politics. Nobody’s mind will be changed. People will defend their own choice 99 times out of 100, and on the off chance a mind gets changed, it won’t be from forum post insistence. The problem people have is assuming every application is the same, and in cases like the post here I’m quoting, if the application is different, then the person moves the goal post to say “well your tank goals are wrong then”. That’s just nonsense.

Circling back around, if someone wants to keep a tank full of tenuis, there’s nothing wrong with that. Why do they have to keep exclusively abros and humis for their tank to be legitimate? If I misinterpreted I genuinely look forward to the clarification, but your post simply reads as one attacking someone else’s goal to defend your own preferred method. If as a hobby you believe we should strive for the most challenging things to keep, why stop at acropora. Surely many NPS and cold water corals are more challenging to keep than reef flat species right?

Figured my post would come off the wrong way, certainly not trying to overreach in any way. Just giving my experience. I never said anyone has to keep a certain coral for their tank to be legitimate, and I am not trying to attack anyone’s goal, I am not sure how my post came off that way but that wasn’t the intention. Mainly trying to state the usefulness of using lights some people think are obsolete. I do agree that nps corals are up there with the most challenging corals to keep. I am not saying we should be keeping digitate acropora because they are challenging though, I am trying to say we should try to keep them because they offer a lot for the hobby.
There are barely any in the tank grown category. There are only a few like some green humilis and some abros that do well enough for people to successfully propagate. We can all grow tenuis, no “need” to go out of the way to grow them for any reason but to have some color. But no one is specifically focused on the digitate acros and being able to figure out how to keep them healthy in our tanks would be huge for the hobby. There are so many species that are amazing and beautiful that people just pass over, shoot it seems they don’t even come in on wild or mari shipments as often anymore and probably because the collectors and such have taken to the fact that people struggle with them and owners struggle to unload them at their stores. I do love the species and think we should be trying to figure out how to do well with all of them. Plus I have seen some amazingly colored digitate acros over the years, which most people would say they are mostly bland colors and not worth the trouble, but there are some very nice ones to be had.

 

[MabuyaQ]

I personally want to emulate corals growing in this environment as I find those look the best. The only light technique I have found capable of doing so is MH (or a 'ridiculous' amount of T5).

 

[Bpb]

I personally want to emulate corals growing in this environment as I find those look the best. The only light technique I have found capable of doing so is MH (or a 'ridiculous' amount of T5).

hamilton still sells 6500k MH bulbs. Not sure how they compare to the old Iwasakis

 

[MJ in Boise]

Anyone tried the Hortilux blue 6500 in 400 watt? How does it look?

 

[A. grandis]

Craziest colors and growth I've ever had on my zoanthid system was using Iwasaki 6500K bulbs. So crazy that I'm not using now because the 20000Ks are already making them grow too fast. They looked extremely healthy and colors/behavior just like in the ocean. That is what matter to me the most.

Any soft/hard coral, giant clam, zoanthids and even coralline algae will do better under halides/T5s. Proper halide/T5 fixture/wattage according to any system will result in an outstanding display! Fishes will show better health under proper light. Halide/t5 will punch their colors and make the environment stress free for the fish in comparison to LEDs in the long run IME. That is absolutely noticeable! Not higher wattage, but the properties of the light: spectrum and distribution. It is so evident to our eyes.

LED market has been driven this hobby to a false belief with their aggressive claims comparing their products to T5s and halides as a superior option since the beginning, no matter what. Saving money on energy and not buying bulbs every year was and still is the top of their market strategies. All in the favor of their own pockets and the great "new technology" and "future of the hobby" making toy looking pucks more like Christmas lights to be the center of attention. They found the hobby to be an easy opportunity for their fast production gains. Doing their business, nothing wrong with that! Many started to add T5s to mask the symptoms and get better results after noticing the need, right? Even the lack of UV was an excuse to get new LED fixtures going and make a profit adding some violets to their LED combos. Violet diodes. Fine to use LEDs as a supplement, maybe a strip or 2, but if you want to get the very best out of your reef tank, halides and/or T5s are still the way to go. Other wise... spend a fortune to get close to that sweet spot and make yourself happy showing off those expensive T5 looking LED fixtures, like the Lani LED.
Unless you don't know any better.

Nice thread on UV:

UV with T5s

Do T5s put out much UV :cool:? When I look at most of the T5s from ATI they basically dont go much below 400. I am looking at reefbreeders LED strip (blue/uv hybrid) which includes 380nm LEDs. Would this be helpful since it looks like not much comes from T5s below 400?

www.reef2reef.com

This is a halide thread... and they are the bomb!

 

[A. grandis]

I personally want to emulate corals growing in this environment as I find those look the best. The only light technique I have found capable of doing so is MH (or a 'ridiculous' amount of T5).

Sick pictures!!!! Did you take them?

 

[oreo54]

Technically, it is not completely false. Your light is just not similar to "most" things.

Technically the aluminum does oxidise. It's just white not brown.

aluminum

oxide just forms a hard, whitish-colored surface skin. When all the aluminum atoms have bonded with oxygen the oxidation process stops.

Trivia..

 

[Dana Riddle]

OK, let's take this down a notch or two.
I've seen some statements made that make me think we're back in the 90's (when MH v. fluorescent lamp debate raged.)
I'll get in the lab as soon as I can and look at a couple of Iwasaki 6500K MH lamps I have archived. Fell 15 feet off a ladder Thursday and I'm hobbling away and bruised and aching in places I didn't know I had.... Good thing recent rains had softened the ground.