Micro bubbles scrubbing DT

Randy Holmes-Farley · Apr 17, 2018

Cruz_Arias said:
For a correction Randy, it's MICRO-NANObubble production... the lack of understanding is the result of this argument.

You're misrepresentation of what we are creating versus the limited understanding of this topic makes many of the arguments from that view irrelevant.

I'll use your own words against you:

You're misrepresentation of what YOU are creating versus YOUR limited understanding of this topic makes many of the arguments from that view irrelevant.

I just do not understand why you cannot simply stick to the benefits that reefers see, instead of trying to justify bubbling a reef tank as a super special effect.

Cruz_Arias · Apr 17, 2018

Here's a pictorial example of microbubbles collapsing that creates the generation of nanobubbles...

http://www.anzaimcs.com/en/main/examplenanobubble.html

Cruz_Arias · Apr 17, 2018

The creation of nanobubbles are easy by collapsing microbubbles.
Here's a slideshow.
LOL

https://www.slideshare.net/MarkLobban/nanobubble

Micro-Nanobubbling... Making Reefing Great Again. LOL (in jest)

Cruz_Arias · Apr 17, 2018

Randy Holmes-Farley · Apr 17, 2018

I'm trying to keep you from misleading Reef2Reef members. I have no dog in this game, except the truth. I have no opinion pro or con on bubbling as a method.

Bubbling might lead to lots of great effects in a reef tank. But your trying to connect reef tank effects to some of the unusual properties of nanobubbles when you are not making them is just misleading folks.

Cruz_Arias · Apr 17, 2018

Another slide from the presentation...

Cruz_Arias · Apr 17, 2018

And I'm trying to keep you from misrepresenting what you have little real life experience with, Randy.

Learning humility is one thing that I learned early on... everyone should experience it.

Cruz_Arias · Apr 17, 2018

https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=bubble+scrubbing+reef

Randy Holmes-Farley · Apr 17, 2018

Cruz_Arias said:
And I'm trying to keep you from misrepresenting what you have little real life experience with, Randy.

Learning humility is one thing that I learned early on... everyone should experience it.

I'm not claiming any for myself. Why do you feel it necessary to attack me?

Science is science no matter who states it.

Cruz_Arias · Apr 17, 2018

The next video is an example of the fog/haze that is created by the correct application of this method.

Cruz_Arias · Apr 17, 2018

You're work is not the only relevant one in this hobby. Everyone has a specialty... you're is water chemistry which includes gas dissolution and ionic balance.

Mine is in waste water treatment and management of waste streams... that includes water remediation in reservoirs and any entrained body of water.

Cruz_Arias · Apr 17, 2018

Randy Holmes-Farley · Apr 17, 2018

I'm not disputing any published papers (although I don't assume they are all correct, they might be).

What I am disputing is whether reefers, in the way they ordinarily use this "method", are actually making nanobubbles. If they are not, then they cannot expect any of the special results that ONLY apply to nanobubbles and not to microbubbles (based on your own posted papers).

If you cannot provide evidence you are making nanobubbles, and are not using the sorts of methods the scientists used to make nanobubbles (not microbubbles), then you are just speculating that you are making them.

Cruz_Arias · Apr 17, 2018

High speed Cavitation of a Microbubble to produce Nanobubbles (Chain Reaction)

Cruz_Arias · Apr 17, 2018

Where's your evidence this does not happen?

In the name of science, the burden of proof that this phenomena does not happen is with the ones who have stated that the hypothesis and the facts I'm presenting are not true.

Cruz_Arias · Apr 17, 2018

Cruz_Arias · Apr 17, 2018

Here's someone else's work applying the same basic concepts of shearing and collapsing microbubbles to generate nanobubbles.
Demonstrated repeatable and viable in an electrolyte RICH water (aka saltwater)

http://ppandey23.blogspot.com/2012/08/micro-and-nanobubble-water.html

Randy Holmes-Farley · Apr 17, 2018

Cruz_Arias said:
Where's your evidence this does not happen?

In the name of science, the burden of proof that this phenomena does not happen is with the ones who have stated that the hypothesis and the facts I'm presenting are not true.

Do you really believe that the burden of proof is on someone who doubts a claim, rather than the one making the claim? Seriously?

I have a 50 foot aquarium in my living room, with a leather coral that is 45 feet long and which has 23 ocellaris clowns living in it, each of which is 3 feet long. I feed them whole tuna.

Randy Holmes-Farley · Apr 17, 2018

Cruz_Arias said:
High speed Cavitation of a Microbubble to produce Nanobubbles (Chain Reaction)

You use high speed cavitation from electric sparks on your reef? A cavitation bubble is not remotely close to a gas-filled microbubble.

A cavitation bubble is mostly water vapor inside the bubble,a nd it collapses rapidly because there's little to no gas (N2, O2, etc.) inside it to maintain a bubble:

https://infoscience.epfl.ch/record/184015/files/EPFL_TH5674.pdf

"When water flows through hydraulic turbomachines, the local pressure can become low enough to vaporize the water and create vapor cavities. This phenomenon is called cavitation. When the cavities collapse, shock waves and liquid jets traveling through the inclusions can erode nearby solid surfaces."

Randy Holmes-Farley · Apr 17, 2018

Cruz_Arias said:
And... even more recently... an article in 2018... explaining the characteristic changes in water structure and ionization of the water molecules.

http://www1.lsbu.ac.uk/water/nanobubble.html

Perfect. Let's look at this reference you posted.

How do they think nanobubbles can be made? Many complex and sophisticated ways. Are you using these?

http://www1.lsbu.ac.uk/water/nanobubble.html#use

They include:

Nanobubbles are initiated in under-saturated water due to temperature fluctuations with raised temperatures reducing solubility and causing saturation fluctuations...

Nanobubbles can be made [2937] by electrolysis [974], by introducing gas into water at a high shear rate [1618, 2306, 3171], from clathrate hydrate dissociation [2671 2959], by decomposition of H2O2 [2960 3222 2948].

Which of those do you use?

In case you are going to claim "gas into water at a high shear rate" (which I recognize is how reefers make microbubbles), let's look at the equipment needed in the exact references your paper gives:

1618. K. Ohgaki, N. Q. Khanh, Y. Joden, A. Tsuji and T. Nakagawa, Physicochemical approach to nanobubble solutions, Chemical Engineering Science, 65 (2010) 1296-1300.

"The gas was broken down into extremely small bubbles in the gas–water mixed flow by means of a so-called zero-clearance rotary pump (D, type 2606, Nippon Oil Pump, Ltd.) under the conditions of 0.6 MPa and 298 K. The rotor having four length-changeable wings rotates with 3600 rpm on the axis shifted from the housing center. The clearance between the housing and wings, which were made of carbon, was reduced to ‘‘zero’’ by means of the centrifugal force served on the spacerpins. It is speculated that nanobubbles generate by passing through the small space."

2306. Recent patents on micro- and nano-bubble applications and potential application of a swirl-type generator, Recent Patents in Mechanical Engineering, 4 (2011) 202-211.

"The swirl-type generator, which is operated using air and water as fluids, makes bubbles that are divided into smaller bubbles by means of the shear stress produced by the swirl flow"

https://www.researchgate.net/public...es_Size_Generator_Performance_with_Swirl_Flow

If you go to the underlying paper, they claim the smallest bubble they made was 50 microns.

3171. H. Oliveira, A. Azevedo and J. Rubio, Nanobubbles generation in a high-rate hydrodynamic cavitation tube,
Minerals Engineering, 116 (2018) 32-34.

"Bubble generation The experimental rig (Fig. 1) consisted of a column (10 cm in diameter and 240 cm in height) associated with a centrifugal pump (Nikuni®, KTM20ND) for liquid recirculation. The CavTube® (CT 100, connection type 1″ NPT, 316 SS) was installed at the bottom entrance of the column and air (pressurized) was injected upstream. A water recycle tank was equipped with a heat exchanger, adjusted to maintain 22 °C, by circulation of refrigerated fluid (Maqtermo®, LS03AR)."