Minimum CP quarantine time

[Crashjack]

After my 15+ year hiatus from the hobby, I have my new display tank going and my first fish in quarantine... two small ORA ocellaris clownfish (and I mean small). This quarantine has been a real pita due to the fish being so tiny, and my sponge filter not being seeded with enough bacteria to fight-off a small ammonia and nitrite spike. When I received the fish almost two weeks ago, they were maybe quarter-sized if you chopped-off several millimeters from the top and bottom of the quarter. It took 3 or 4 days to get them to even look at food, and it is still hard to get them to eat anything other than frozen brine shrimp... similar to trying to trick your cat into eating its medicine. It is also a pain that I'm having to shave-off minuscule quantities of food from frozen cubes and pulverize already small pieces of flake into a powder, just to avoid polluting the qt and to give these guys something they can fit into their mouths. I've managed the spike with water changes, and that appears to be about over, though still a little nitrite a couple of days ago. I don't want to start CP until my nitrite gets to zero, which I'll check again tomorrow. Once that happens, I will add CP.

My thought was to treat with CP for three weeks, adding GC at the beginning of the last week and doing a second round of GC a few days later. I also planned to take the fish straight to the display (e.g. before lowering/removing CP). This would give me a minimum of 5 weeks total quarantine with the last three weeks being medicated. These will be the first two fish in the display so no issues with competing for food or bullying. I realize the longer the quarantine the better, but with the fish showing no signs after two weeks and then three weeks of CP treatment and two rounds of GC, would that suffice? I want to get the fish into the main tank to make feeding easier. I'm already ghost feeding the main tank, which has clean-up crew and some small corals, and getting these fish in the main tank (72"x24"x19" with 39 gal sump), gives me a lot more feeding options, which will be better for the fish. I also already have a zillion pods in the main tank, which would fit in their mouths.

 

[Shaddow_wolf169]

Sorry never quarantined can't help. You have coral in a non cycled tank?

 

[aykwm]

If you got your fish directly from ORA then you don't need to add medications to tank as ORA fish are disease free, observation will be just fine. If the fish were from LFS or other source then contamination might have occurred. For CP or copper you want to go 30 days for best result, it seems to be the sweet spot where more than than that it will be harsh on fish and less than that it might not be as effective. For prazi make sure they are 5-7 days apart and you should be fine.
Best of luck and congratulation for the new fish and tank..

 

[4FordFamily]

30 days. I would never rely on any LFS or company to properly QT, IMO.

 

[Crashjack]

Sorry never quarantined can't help. You have coral in a non cycled tank?

No. Pukani dry rock cured for over 2 months. I added Biospira and during that time it cycled (I tested and measured the spikes). I mixed saltwater in tank before moving rock from curing barrel. After putting rock in tank and adding sand, tank ran for around 3 weeks before adding anything, while I ghost fed around every other day. After that, I added cuc and slowly started adding some corals.

 

[Crashjack]

If you got your fish directly from ORA then you don't need to add medications to tank as ORA fish are disease free, observation will be just fine. If the fish were from LFS or other source then contamination might have occurred.

Fish were purchased from Live Aquaria. I'm not sure if they take possession or if they ship direct from ORA.

 

[Crashjack]

30 days. I would never rely on any LFS or company to properly QT, IMO.

My thought was thinking through the life cycles, if free-swimming parasites are killed, the only way to transmit would be if attached to the fish when I transfer. With three weeks, I thought that phase would have to be complete and parasites would either be attached to non living surfaces or dead, so they wouldn't be transferred with the fish.

 

[Humblefish]

Fish were purchased from Live Aquaria. I'm not sure if they take possession or if they ship direct from ORA.

LA specimens are typically drop shipments from a wholesaler: Quality Marine.

Diver's Den specimens gets some QT at a facility in Wisconsin, but I do consider it to be thorough.

My thought was thinking through the life cycles, if free-swimming parasites are killed, the only way to transmit would be if attached to the fish when I transfer. With three weeks, I thought that phase would have to be complete and parasites would either be attached to non living surfaces or dead, so they wouldn't be transferred with the fish.

Most ich strains complete their entire lifecycle in <30 days. So, 30 days in CP (or copper) will suffice in most cases. However, at least a few strains have been discovered which take >30 days (one takes 72), so for these you would need to transfer the fish out of CP and into a non medicated HT.

Also know these species are currently considered intolerant of CP: Wrasses, anthias and Hippo Tangs.

 

[Crashjack]

Most ich strains complete their entire lifecycle in <30 days. So, 30 days in CP (or copper) will suffice in most cases. However, at least a few strains have been discovered which take >30 days (one takes 72), so for these you would need to transfer the fish out of CP and into a non medicated HT.

Also know these species are currently considered intolerant of CP: Wrasses, anthias and Hippo Tangs.

Ok, this is where I get confused... with TTM, one is creating a physical barrier to where Ich isn't destroyed, it just is kept away from the fish until it mathematically works out to where based on the known life cycles, the fish are at a point to where they can't be infected so when the fish are removed the last time, they have no Ich. With copper, CP, etc., one is creating a chemical barrier to where theronts can't pass (they die). Therefore, mathematically, as long as chemical treatment is long enough to ensure all trophonts have left the fish, and as long as it is long enough to cover the full theront stage, it has to create a "barrier" to where the fish is not infected and cannot be infected, as long as the chemical levels remain in check. Removing the fish at this time would be no different than removing from TTM... there very well might still be parasites in the system, just not on the fish.

I'm not making this claim based on experience or knowledge, just math and simple logic. If the issue is that the chemical might be ineffective, then the chemical shouldn't be used as it is a waste if time and money and potentially harmful to the fish, and nothing less than a 76 day quarantine is going to work. What am I missing?

 

[AcanthurusRex]

Sorry never quarantined can't help. You have coral in a non cycled tank?

Useful post...
I'm pretty sure that LA ORA orders are effectively drop shipped from ORA based on the address on my shipment, they don't come from California. I still have them in a 30 day QT with CP.
I'm using AquaForest Life Bio Fil which seems to completely work. I had my 4.5 inch tang in QT and never had any issues with water quality. Did a 20% water change per week with the tang.

 

[Humblefish]

I think we are on the same page here. I prefer to refer to TTM as "outrunning" the parasite's known lifecycle. At some point during TTM, all trophonts will drop off the fish and all that is left is the tomont stage which encysts to glass, PVC, equipment in the QT. And since it takes at least 72 hrs for any free swimmers to emerge from the tomonts, you are transferring the fish away from that threat before it can actually happen.

When a fish is placed in QT and CP (or copper) is used, a 10 day countdown begins, but only once the chemical has reached full therapeutic and never drops below that (very important). Because full therapeutic CP/copper is your "shield" protecting the fish from reinfection i.e. free swimmers. Even though 7 days is technically the longest ich trophonts can remain on a fish before dropping off, and velvet is even less than that (4 days), I like to use 10 days as the minimum to allow for some wiggle room i.e. human error.

After 10 days you can transfer the fish into a second QT, but it must be at least 10 feet away from the original treatment tank to account for aerosol transmission: https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/aerosol-transmission.190292/

The fish should be parasite free at this point, but 30 days observation in non-medicated water is always recommended just to be sure. After all, we are all human and make mistakes.

 

[Crashjack]

I think we are on the same page here. I prefer to refer to TTM as "outrunning" the parasite's known lifecycle. At some point during TTM, all trophonts will drop off the fish and all that is left is the tomont stage which encysts to glass, PVC, equipment in the QT. And since it takes at least 72 hrs for any free swimmers to emerge from the tomonts, you are transferring the fish away from that threat before it can actually happen.

When a fish is placed in QT and CP (or copper) is used, a 10 day countdown begins, but only once the chemical has reached full therapeutic and never drops below that (very important). Because full therapeutic CP/copper is your "shield" protecting the fish from reinfection i.e. free swimmers. Even though 7 days is technically the longest ich trophonts can remain on a fish before dropping off, and velvet is even less than that (4 days), I like to use 10 days as the minimum to allow for some wiggle room i.e. human error.

After 10 days you can transfer the fish into a second QT, but it must be at least 10 feet away from the original treatment tank to account for aerosol transmission: https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/aerosol-transmission.190292/

The fish should be parasite free at this point, but 30 days observation in non-medicated water is always recommended just to be sure. After all, we are all human and make mistakes.

Ok. This makes sense. I'm just trying to separate best practice from the fish being free from parasites. In this case, the additional time for observation would be at the beginning instead of the end. I realize that won't catch a mistake, but one would assume that typically, an infestation would have shown on the fish in the two unmedicated weeks at the beginning unless it was Ich or something you might not be able to see and the fish exhibited no signs. These fish are so small and so hard to feed, I believe they will fair better in the display, where they can take what they can get their mouths around from larger and a better variety of feedings and have access to copepods and such 24/7. My quarantining isn't full-proof, anyway. I've got no way to quarantine corals for 10 weeks, so I'm dipping and hoping for the best. I just want to do the best I can and hopefully get lucky.

 

[4FordFamily]

Ok. This makes sense. I'm just trying to separate best practice from the fish being free from parasites. In this case, the additional time for observation would be at the beginning instead of the end. I realize that won't catch a mistake, but one would assume that typically, an infestation would have shown on the fish in the two unmedicated weeks at the beginning unless it was Ich or something you might not be able to see and the fish exhibited no signs. These fish are so small and so hard to feed, I believe they will fair better in the display, where they can take what they can get their mouths around from larger and a better variety of feedings and have access to copepods and such 24/7. My quarantining isn't full-proof, anyway. I've got no way to quarantine corals for 10 weeks, so I'm dipping and hoping for the best. I just want to do the best I can and hopefully get lucky.

Any time I've tried to get lucky without any margin for error I've been burned very hard...

 

[clsanchez77]

Fish were purchased from Live Aquaria. I'm not sure if they take possession or if they ship direct from ORA.

Definitely QT and medicate!

 

[Crashjack]

Any time I've tried to get lucky without any margin for error I've been burned very hard...

I'm not a lucky guy, either, but sometimes you just play the odds after getting the odds as much in your favor as you can. I don't believe 100% full-proof with this stuff is possible. With all the protocols in operating rooms, some people still come out with infections, and hobbyists are kidding ourselves if they think they have created the ultimate sterile environment. That said, I also realize that those who quarantine everything for 10 weeks have made better odds for themselves than I am making for myself, but we all do what we can.

 

[4FordFamily]

I'm not a lucky guy, either, but sometimes you just play the odds after getting the odds as much in your favor as you can. I don't believe 100% full-proof with this stuff is possible. With all the protocols in operating rooms, some people still come out with infections, and hobbyists are kidding ourselves if they think they have created the ultimate sterile environment. That said, I also realize that those who quarantine everything for 10 weeks have made better odds for themselves than I am making for myself, but we all do what we can.

I assure you disease free success is possible and it is not easy. Much reward when done, however!

 

[melypr1985]

Well, I'm late to this party! I agree with not trusting anybody's QT but my own. I don't care where they came from or what they do for the fish before they ship.... the fish should always go into QT and at least be monitored closely. Personally, I would do TTM and Prazi at a minimum no matter what.

 

[Crashjack]

I assure you disease free success is possible and it is not easy. Much reward when done, however!

I agree 100%... definitely possible and many have achieved. My point was that no regimin is full-proof. There is always a margin of error, and the probability that parasites will make it to the display is never 0. Human error, bad medication, bad test kits, resistant parasites, unidentified strains of parasites, aerosol traveling further than 10'... there are too many variables to 100% guaranty no display infestation no matter what the regimen is. Not quarantining at all doesn't make it 100% certain parasites will be in the display tank, and the most conservative quarantining practices won't make it 100% certain there will be no parasites in the display tank. However, the better the quarantining practices employed, the better the chances that no parasites will make it to the display.

I think a lot of folks fall into the trap of "absolutes"... "If one medicates fish for 30 days and observes for another 45, and all corals and other inverts are quarantined for 10 weeks, there is zero chance parasites will enter the display." "If one does not medicate fish for 30 days and observe for another 45, and all corals and other inverts are not quarantined for 10 weeks, there is a 100% chance parasites will enter the display." Neither statement is accurate. In reality, the greatest chance of infestation is by doing nothing and the smallest chance of infestation is by following the 10 week quarantining protocol to a "T". However, what is too often overlooked are all the points in between. I think too many folks just throw up their hands and do no quarantining whatsoever because they have been sucked into an all or none mindset, and they can't do the "all". Unfortunate because they probably could do something to better their chances.

 

[4FordFamily]

I agree 100%... definitely possible and many have achieved. My point was that no regimin is full-proof. There is always a margin of error, and the probability that parasites will make it to the display is never 0. Human error, bad medication, bad test kits, resistant parasites, unidentified strains of parasites, aerosol traveling further than 10'... there are too many variables to 100% guaranty no display infestation no matter what the regimen is. Not quarantining at all doesn't make it 100% certain parasites will be in the display tank, and the most conservative quarantining practices won't make it 100% certain there will be no parasites in the display tank. However, the better the quarantining practices employed, the better the chances that no parasites will make it to the display.

I think a lot of folks fall into the trap of "absolutes"... "If one medicates fish for 30 days and observes for another 45, and all corals and other inverts are quarantined for 10 weeks, there is zero chance parasites will enter the display." "If one does not medicate fish for 30 days and observe for another 45, and all corals and other inverts are not quarantined for 10 weeks, there is a 100% chance parasites will enter the display." Neither statement is accurate. In reality, the greatest chance of infestation is by doing nothing and the smallest chance of infestation is by following the 10 week quarantining protocol to a "T". However, what is too often overlooked are all the points in between. I think too many folks just throw up their hands and do no quarantining whatsoever because they have been sucked into an all or none mindset, and they can't do the "all". Unfortunate because they probably could do something to better their chances.

I see where you are coming from, but to use an analogy -- if I know that a couple tweaks and safety nets will increase my odds of success at anything, I'm going to do them. I do this in my line of work and many other things in life and it's paid dividends thus far. That said, it's true we still mess up. We learn something each time and are better for it. Just my .02, friend!

 

[Crashjack]

I see where you are coming from, but to use an analogy -- if I know that a couple tweaks and safety nets will increase my odds of success at anything, I'm going to do them. I do this in my line of work and many other things in life and it's paid dividends thus far.

Yep, exactly what I'm trying to say (you said it better than I did).