Ha. the answer I was looking for!
Miracle mudd experience?
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Ha. the answer I was looking for!
I don't know how it would stop Lateral disease in fish? That's nuts!
I do know that deep sand beds are actually very beneficial when set up properly. They help with denitrification and can also house many extremely tiny animals that can process a lot of waste such as fish food and poo.
Gino
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Hello everybody!
As been posted before, MM might work if is used for the right purpose. MM it's a anaerobic sand bed (actually mud) with some minerals. By that means is like a DSB with some extra additions. Because sand compact harder than regular sand you don't need to be more than 2" deep to do his work, but it needs to mature as a DSB to do his work. (It will definitely denitrify) And will help with your population of amphipod, worms and other microfauna within it. Of course also with some mangroves and with macro algae as well like in the lagoons (excellent for planting them and keep them going). And we all know what's the benefits of macro algae in our refugium (will keep in check phosphate and nitrogen, products of decomposition) Did you need it to accomplish this??? "NO"
When I first started my tank, it was completely sterile, everything dry. I cycle my tank with the MM in the sump, and just add liquid bacteria with a raw shrimp from the supermarket and let it run. My tank complete it cycle in about two weeks, not because the Miracle Mud just because I add a good brand of life bacteria. So I start to add fishes to the DT. About a two months mark, for my surprise, I started to see tiny creatures in my sump. Definitely came with the MM. So I decided to add and plant like a tenis ball of grape caulerpa to the refugium and add some rubble to help them anchor and root into the mud. (It grows like crazy). My text came on check at the parameters I aim for. I only got few softies and LPS because my lights are a piece of crap, but they extended their polyps like no tomorrow and I have never feed them, just what is in the water column from the fish poop and feeding times. Did this could be because of the MM? "Maybe" My fish are colorful and healthy, those corals are in great shape and color, and most important my parameters are right in point. BY THE WAY... I forget to mention, I haven't done a water change since I build the tank. I run protein skimmer from time in a while also filter suck only when I see to much particulate floating around. Also a cheap underrated UV light just for clarification of the water. And a carbon reactor just and only if I noticed yellowing water to much that the UV can't keep up, or any of the leathers is shading tissue in case it releases any toxins to the water. But that is if I need too.
I don't know if all this experience with the Miracle Mud it's because of it or not, but something might have to be. In my opinion, it doesn't hurt to have it in the sump in various plastic containers from Dollar Tree, and once a year or so, change just half of it. Anyway the caulerpa have to be changed every year for a fresh one. Because they decay no matter what and you don't want to crash with it.
As been posted before, MM might work if is used for the right purpose. MM it's a anaerobic sand bed (actually mud) with some minerals. By that means is like a DSB with some extra additions. Because sand compact harder than regular sand you don't need to be more than 2" deep to do his work, but it needs to mature as a DSB to do his work. (It will definitely denitrify) And will help with your population of amphipod, worms and other microfauna within it. Of course also with some mangroves and with macro algae as well like in the lagoons (excellent for planting them and keep them going). And we all know what's the benefits of macro algae in our refugium (will keep in check phosphate and nitrogen, products of decomposition) Did you need it to accomplish this??? "NO"
When I first started my tank, it was completely sterile, everything dry. I cycle my tank with the MM in the sump, and just add liquid bacteria with a raw shrimp from the supermarket and let it run. My tank complete it cycle in about two weeks, not because the Miracle Mud just because I add a good brand of life bacteria. So I start to add fishes to the DT. About a two months mark, for my surprise, I started to see tiny creatures in my sump. Definitely came with the MM. So I decided to add and plant like a tenis ball of grape caulerpa to the refugium and add some rubble to help them anchor and root into the mud. (It grows like crazy). My text came on check at the parameters I aim for. I only got few softies and LPS because my lights are a piece of crap, but they extended their polyps like no tomorrow and I have never feed them, just what is in the water column from the fish poop and feeding times. Did this could be because of the MM? "Maybe" My fish are colorful and healthy, those corals are in great shape and color, and most important my parameters are right in point. BY THE WAY... I forget to mention, I haven't done a water change since I build the tank. I run protein skimmer from time in a while also filter suck only when I see to much particulate floating around. Also a cheap underrated UV light just for clarification of the water. And a carbon reactor just and only if I noticed yellowing water to much that the UV can't keep up, or any of the leathers is shading tissue in case it releases any toxins to the water. But that is if I need too.
I don't know if all this experience with the Miracle Mud it's because of it or not, but something might have to be. In my opinion, it doesn't hurt to have it in the sump in various plastic containers from Dollar Tree, and once a year or so, change just half of it. Anyway the caulerpa have to be changed every year for a fresh one. Because they decay no matter what and you don't want to crash with it.
Theresa Loveless
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Ok no mud from Oregon now i did get the package today i put it in my tank my zoas and black widow nems love it they sparked right up and on my hard corals the polyps are more out than normal i definitely see a difference im liking what i see i will keep a daily log and see how this works i did turn on my skimmer on low it was doing way to much on regular i usually dry skim it pulls out alot im thinking once this stuff settles i may go back to normal and skim the way i have been doing i also see what appears to be glitter the fish are eating on it i assume it may be food for them to give them better color as this is what the product says it does i do notice snails that come out at night they came out with in a half hour of running the tank normally. They don't come out usually until lights go out not sure why maybe the minerals it is actual sand mud mix as some have reported silicone i suspect the little glitter speckles may be silicon in any case this product seems to be beneficial we'll see on a year .
Theresa Loveless
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Oh sorry my tank has been running for 3 yrs not that new to the hobby actually going to buy an lfs here in a few days lol or months im thinking i am going to offer this product if everything works out .
Whilst I agree with a lot of your full post, on the manufacturers website it states "miracle mud is comprised of up to 80% oceanic mud, harvested from deep waters and then dried on land. The remaining 20% is a formulation of minerals and trace elements".
Theresa Loveless
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Update this stuff is very good whatever it is my corals love it and brought my nitrates down to 0.0 and fast hands down it works! I really see a difference im ocd and watch my tank sometimes for a couple days if something is out of wack i ll know it my corals are evenly space outi take pictures of one piece a week sometimes a couple i definitely would recommend this product and it has been only a few days its expensive i would like to find a cheaper version for the future any ideas ?
I personally think it’s snake oil. So it’s a small deep sandbed with minerals? What minerals? I just don’t buy it. What few minerals combined with a small deep sandbed could make a miracle happen in our tanks?
Can we get this on a BRS investigates? I bet I’m right.
Can we get this on a BRS investigates? I bet I’m right.
It’s not snake oil, and it’s not a make or break miracle neither. There are trace elements in the mud. Some manufacturers add additional elements to the mud that already has elements.
Do you think they take mud that’s loaded with elements and take the time and added expense of taking the elements out, then lie to you about it?
Do you think they take mud that’s loaded with elements and take the time and added expense of taking the elements out, then lie to you about it?
Theresa Loveless
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I had high nitrates and with in two days this stuff made my reading 0.0 my corals love it they are like almost looking like they are stretching well the zoas there is some dort of glitter looking Substance the sand is like you get from A Lake looks like a little Agates The dirt is very very fine Stirs up really easily I'm thinking this rock come from Asia Or somewhere in that region Can say without a shadow of a doubt it does help with whatever substance is in The Mix Now it's only been about a week I do see a change in my fish as well they are swimming faster and more excitedlyI do recommend it I do see a changeEnough to recommend this productIf you are having trouble with Nitrates it helps I would like to know exactly what's in there there was a post earlier that said it was mostly Made up of a lot of different thingsIt says not to Run a skimmer but I am seems to be doing pretty good the 1st couple days it wasDoing too much I waited a couple days and then turn it back on now it's running fineDo you know where I may find a cheaperGeneric brand of this stuff if so please let me know thank You very much
Theresa Loveless
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I would like to see this product on brs see what they come up with as well. all i know is it's doing not like eyepoping but noticable changes in corals and fish. Definitely is improving my water quality i think it helps bind matter as well due to my skimmer pulling more waste out than normal the mud settled good and remains undisturbed originally thought that may be the case but it wasn't. How would we go about getting Brs to do a test on this product?
clsanchez77
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Thanks, I appreciate that, however my statement is rooted in a previous study. Sadly with the loss of the www.reefs.org site, I can no longer reference the study. The results were that the mud is 30% silicone and therefore 63% silicon dioxide...quartz sand. Further, while ICP testing does detect calcium, it detects no alkalinity. So perhaps 37% oceanic mud? I recall Randy Homles-Farley once attempted to dissolve the sand in acid to try and find any signs of carbonate and could not. So perhaps no oceanic mud? My theory, again I have been around over 20 years, is that this mud is likely harvested in a brackish estuary more common of mangroves than corals. A lower pH and constant outflow will prevent calcium carbonate substrate from developing or settlings...but one could technically call it "oceanic mud"
The ICP test results are on EcoSystems own website: http://www.ecosystemaquarium.com/faq/miracle-mud-independent-analysis/
Here is an old discussion on RC regarding it. Again, having known that even as late as 2014, I still use it and have it in my fuge now.
Now, note on the ICP analysis there is more aluminum than calcium...does not appear to be an oceanic source to me...not even 80%.
I will say again, I do use this mud, although I may switch sources soon. The mud has done well, but look at the tanks that use it. If that is what you specifically want to mimic, then by all means, use the mud! It will work great at keeping nitrates at 0 almost no matter what. However, if your goals are more "modern", the mud will work against you. I think in regards to modern methods, using a Balling Method with Trace Elements and high quality salts is a better way to get the calcium and trace elements than Mircale Mud. Keeping the current platter of trendy corals will require more careful control on nitrates and phosphates and that will be difficult with any "mud" approach IMO.
I wish Leng and his family well. Last I heard he was not doing well and that was about 2 years ago. I enjoyed my recent email exchanges with him when I set the current tank up. He is very passionate about the hobby....but was always very misleading in his marketing.
I will also note that Mike Paletta promotes this substrate and uses it on his tanks...with the reminder that Mike is a Fish guy first and foremost and I believe that is the strong point of the mud, is heavily fish populated systems.
Theresa Loveless
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What ever it is lol it work i can say honestly I still use a skimmer I didn't for the 1st day or so and now it's pulling out more gunk Not the actual mud because it stays settled in the sump But if you follow the directions But it does make a difference Not like OMG but a noticeable difference
ca1ore
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Can anyone offer even a moderately cogent argument as to why this stuff would be able to reduce high nitrates to zero in a few days? I cannot. I’m considering adding a small lagoon tank to my system and debating whether to use this stuff or just stick with sugar aragonite.
I think sugar fine Aragonite and Siporax will out preform that mud. I haven't heard one logical argument either.
Theresa Loveless
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Im not sure how or why im trying to get some facts on this exact thing nitrates were high i put this in my sump followed the said directions i let a little flow go down just enough i can see the mud just slightly moving ( surface mainly) but not enough to stir it up to be placed in my dt i checked my nitrates a day before and they were in the said red zone (overfeeding ) wanna make sure everyone is fed i still feed the same as i have i checked lvls after 2 days and they were 0.0 and holding i did run my skimmer a day later and it has been pulling out more matter than normal i think this stuff makes the Molecular structure Bind better So it's easier for The skimmer to pull it out i would try it but first make sure you can have at least 2 or 3 inches in sump the way i did it was drain most water out of sump but enough to mix this stuff was a little dusty so tried to get the bag as close to the water as possible and then poured into the cheato section there was just enough water to cover the mud waited for it to settle maybe 15 minutes or so for my sump and the slowly let water back into the chamber my water was a little cloudy not bad changed my fiter sock and did again the next day changed again water was clear as well the next day and the sand has stayed in place so far im not sure why they call it mud mostly sand and substrate very little mud its a fine dirt like dust ? Oh and i use the normal cheato on top i would try it for me its working great its not like omg different in fish/corals the fish really do seem happier and my zoas and now bubble corals have shown a big change my bubble corals is really puffy and looking great the zoas look as if there streching at night my acans have these little tentacles on them that did come out before but now more Prominent There is a sale on it from one seller on e bay not sure if i can post link most want 70 bucks for 10 lbs i bought mine for 57 and some change for me this stuff works i just followed what it said to do and it worked i love so far if you do decide let me know how it works out for you i want to see if BRS will do proper test on this stuff experiment with i mean it makes sense ocean have dirt and all the elements i am curious as to what the worlds ocean lvls are at ? If this can help get as close to regular sea lvls as possible im interested to see if this maybe another lvl of reefing to help improve this hobby. Well let me know if you decide to try it tske care
ca1ore
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It certainly may bind nitrates (like aragonite binds phosphate), but it is hard to see how that would happen so quickly. The skeptic in me wonders whether it interferes with the nitrate test. The problem with the skimmer argument is that even the best skimmers only remove about 1/3 of the available organics, and do nothing for existing nitrates or phosphates. Not trying to bust anyone's chops, just trying to better understand how this stuff works (or doesn't). Probably there is no cogent argument - you either believe or you don't.
clsanchez77
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That is basically it. The "mud" is so finely graded that it allows you to create the anoxic sand layers required for nitrate reduction with only 3/4" to 1" of mud. The key is you can not have live rock or other disturbances in the profile, or any large burrowers that would disturb the stratification. I do agree with Reefahholic, the same thing can be accomplished with a sugar fine carbonate sand. Your only issue there is aragonite sand is lighter than silicate sands so you will have a harder time keeping it settled....but only at first.
There is also the nutrients dissolved in the mud. Has nothing to do with nitrate reduction and honestly I just don't think they are needed with either water changes or any of the modern methods balling methods or trace element additions.
I would be curious is anyone has settled some miracle mud in a fresh batch of salt water for a few days and do an ICP test on it. Would need two tests, one with and one without from the same batch of salt water. I don't have any fresh mud otherwise I would offer.
clsanchez77
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You know, I think I am the odd guy out on this but I have always struggled with chaeto in my refugium with miracle mud, but Caluerpa does great. I always figured my tank is too lightly stocked, but its also about 3 years old and "well fed". Never understood that.
