Mixed Signals about Nutrient Levels

[FunkEngine]

Not sure if this should go here, nutrition, or the SPS forum, but here we go.

So my tank has been giving me some mixed signals about my nutrient levels. My SPS are all very pale, and growth is stunted almost to the point of nonexistence. Algae growth is glacial, it takes weeks to dust the glass. I do have pest algae on the rocks, but its growth is also extremely slow, and it largely remains static.

I have never tested detectable nitrates on salifert, and my phosphates have always (since about the first month of the tank) tested below .06 on Hanna ULR checker. Because of the very slow algae growth, I take these test results to be fairly close to the "actual" values.

So, in an effort to remedy this low nutrient system, I started to dose KNO3. I dosed for an increase of exactly 1ppm/day. I did this for 1 week before stopping because algae growth exploded. I monitored nutrients levels closely during this time. Nitrate would fall back to 0ppm by the next day before dosing. Phosphorus remained largely static and within test variance.

Its been a few weeks since Nitrate dosing was attempted and the status quo of very slow algae growth and pale non growing corals has been restored.

So my question is how is it that I seemingly have problems associated with both low and high nutrient systems simultaneously? And also how can I remedy this situation?

 

[LivinTheSwreefLife]

Tagging along as I have the same issue.

 

[nautical_nathaniel]

Out of curiosity, how many fish do you have and how big is your system?

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley Verified Community Expert]

It is often a conundrum to boost nutrients enough to help corals that are not getting the same level of living and particulate foods they'd get in the wild, and not help algae.

I think in many cases, folks with higher nutrients who do not have algae issues either have adequate herbivores, or have some other attribute limiting the algae growth (such as iron).

 

[FunkEngine]

Out of curiosity, how many fish do you have and how big is your system?

Its a reefer 170, 34 gallon display 10 gallon sump. I had 2 fish for a while, but now am up to 3.

It is often a conundrum to boost nutrients enough to help corals that are not getting the same level of living and particulate foods they'd get in the wild, and not help algae.

I think in many cases, folks with higher nutrients who do not have algae issues either have adequate herbivores, or have some other attribute limiting the algae growth (such as iron).

So what might a solution be? Just increase snail population and dose up?

 

[nautical_nathaniel]

Its a reefer 170, 34 gallon display 10 gallon sump. I had 2 fish for a while, but now am up to 3.

I have no scientific proof backing this up, but I would make the case that your bio-load isn't large enough for your system, it sort of depends on which fish you have now (and it's a decision you would need to think about for a little bit), but maybe try adding another fish and see what that does for the nitrates. Dosing is cool and all, but I have always opted for the more natural approach when given the choice.

 

[jda]

If your tank is doing this naturally, then let it be. Manually intervening can disrupt any equilibrium that your tank will try and establish, IMO - it will basically adjust to your dosing to equilibrium again and your levels will net the same once it does. If you are pushing N and P down with organic carbon, GFO or LC, then stop - if not, then you are fine. Your aragonite will leave some P in the water and the anoxic bacteria will also get an equilibrium to where there is some N, but not too much.

If your SPS are pale and your tank is less than a year or fifteen months old, then you just need to wait. I know that this is not sexy, but it is what needs to happen.

 

[Potatohead]

I have kind of the same issue but I do have ok growth. I am pretty sure I just need to let the tank age a bit more (16 months old started with marco rocks) and that my rock is leaching phosphate. I have a few live rocks I used as well and those have no algae on them at all.

 

[saltyfilmfolks]

I'd use a smaller dose. And also perhaps look at the cause of the low nutints. Over skimming under feeding? Bio pelletts? Etc.

 

[rkpetersen]

I would stop dosing nitrate, get several more fish and feed them, let your filter socks go for a bit longer before changing them (if you use them), decrease your water changes (if you do them). You'll be hitting a nitrate level of 1-2 before long, and the more gradual increase may be less likely to induce rampant algae blooms. What's your magnesium? I have heard that elevating your magnesium helps to suppress many kinds of algae, so it might be worth bringing that up to 1350-1400 especially if it's currently low.

A different approach - When running your system ultra clean, do you dose any kind of coral growth/color additives? With trace elements, vitamins, amino acids, etc? When I added something like this to my dosing routine, the corals really perked up and start growing like crazy, but after 3 weeks or so I started seeing cyano in the sand despite low nitrate/phosphorus levels. This increased until I stopped the additive, then the algae faded back day by day, and 3 weeks further on the algae was gone again. I guess it's the amino acids more than anything that stimulates both the corals and the algae? I then restarted the supplement at a lower dose, and so far corals are doing great and algae has not recurred. So maybe you just have to find the sweet spot in your water chemistry and dosing regimen.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley Verified Community Expert]

So what might a solution be? Just increase snail population and dose up?

Not sure I have a perfect solution. It's an imperfect balancing act.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley Verified Community Expert]

If your tank is doing this naturally, then let it be. Manually intervening can disrupt any equilibrium that your tank will try and establish, IMO - it will basically adjust to your dosing to equilibrium again and your levels will net the same once it does. If you are pushing N and P down with organic carbon, GFO or LC, then stop - if not, then you are fine. Your aragonite will leave some P in the water and the anoxic bacteria will also get an equilibrium to where there is some N, but not too much.

If your SPS are pale and your tank is less than a year or fifteen months old, then you just need to wait. I know that this is not sexy, but it is what needs to happen.

Your claiming that nutrient problems will just go away on their own if you wait long enough?

 

[jackson6745]

What kind of nuisance algae? IME the algae will outcompete the SPS for nutrient when it comes to zoox population and rich colors. So you test 0 nitrates and have starved looking SPS. I would suggest manual removal of nuisance algae if possible, at the same time increase your bioload so you can maintain a little nitrate in the system without dosing. This may take a combination of increased stocking and or reducing filtration i.e. skim dry, remove fuge. I don't know anything about your system.

 

[jda]

Your claiming that nutrient problems will just go away on their own if you wait long enough?

That is not what I was claiming. I was claiming that there is enough nutrients in the water already unless they are being stripped by organic carbon, GFO or LC... and that the issue is elsewhere. I also claimed that if his tank has a healthy population of anoxic bacteria, which is likely since his N is low, that they will quickly multiply with the kno3 dosing and he will be right back where he was once the do.

I do believe that more-established tanks are easier to have a good time with acropora.

 

[Bruce Burnett]

Depends on the fish you have and what you want but if it is hair algae I would get a couple of herbivores to rid the display of algae. You may have pale or bleached corals for other reasons such as drastic swings in parameters. People use Algae Scrubbers to keep nitrates and phosphates low but that does not make it an ULNS if there is enough food going in. I feed my tank 3-5 times a day and have zero nitrates and phosphates using Salifert and Hanna but just had some of my corals bleach because of a big drop in Alk from 9.6 to 6.4 in just a few days.

 

[DHill6]

Not sure if this should go here, nutrition, or the SPS forum, but here we go.

So my tank has been giving me some mixed signals about my nutrient levels. My SPS are all very pale, and growth is stunted almost to the point of nonexistence. Algae growth is glacial, it takes weeks to dust the glass. I do have pest algae on the rocks, but its growth is also extremely slow, and it largely remains static.

I have never tested detectable nitrates on salifert, and my phosphates have always (since about the first month of the tank) tested below .06 on Hanna ULR checker. Because of the very slow algae growth, I take these test results to be fairly close to the "actual" values.

So, in an effort to remedy this low nutrient system, I started to dose KNO3. I dosed for an increase of exactly 1ppm/day. I did this for 1 week before stopping because algae growth exploded. I monitored nutrients levels closely during this time. Nitrate would fall back to 0ppm by the next day before dosing. Phosphorus remained largely static and within test variance.

Its been a few weeks since Nitrate dosing was attempted and the status quo of very slow algae growth and pale non growing corals has been restored.

So my question is how is it that I seemingly have problems associated with both low and high nutrient systems simultaneously? And also how can I remedy this situation?

 

[DHill6]

I also have a Reefer 170. Only one fish and a lot of snails. The rocks are Real Reef Rocks that we’re shipped from the baby clownfish holding tank at Pacific East Aquaculture. The water was from from previous tank. In my case I only feed frozen LRS Reef frenzy to the fish, both fish and LPS like it. I have added one SPS, JF Homewrecker. Nutrients are p04- .04-.06 and nitrates.05, raiding with dosing stump remover 1.5 , looking good with great color. I do use TM Pro salt and it’s B.B. I have also added only 1 ml of Red Sea A and B once a week, reefroids once a week and phyto feast every once and a while. Everything is stable, I think in my case the biggest contributor of success in this tank versus the last tank is the rock. Just my opinion.

 

[MnFish1]

That is not what I was claiming. I was claiming that there is enough nutrients in the water already unless they are being stripped by organic carbon, GFO or LC... and that the issue is elsewhere. I also claimed that if his tank has a healthy population of anoxic bacteria, which is likely since his N is low, that they will quickly multiply with the kno3 dosing and he will be right back where he was once the do. I do believe that more-established tanks are easier to have a good time with acropora.

How are nutrients stripped by organic carbon (or is it bacteria fueled by organic carbon (used as fuel) that are decreasing nutrients)?
By 'N' did you mean 'nitrate' or total nitrogen? By Anoxic bacteria did you mean anearobic bacteria that use Nitrate as fuel?
I'm not sure your analysis is correct - the Nitrogen cycle in the tank is likely much more complex. I honestly have no clue what is going on in his tank - but - if what you are saying is true - there would be no reason to does KNO3 - Because it would be quickly taken up by the multiplying bacteria (in an established tank or an unestablished tank)

I wonder if the coral can incorporate small amounts of nitrate faster than bacteria can multiply.

I wonder if the reason 'established' tanks have a 'better time with acropora' is that they have a larger mass of 'coral'/'bacteria' meaning they will outcompete bacteria/algae, etc for nitrate.

Again - these are questions - not criticisms. Just didnt know exactly what you meant

 

[AcroJack]

I would agree with @Randy Holmes-Farley and @nautical_nathaniel and add that pumping the end of the nitrogen cycle by dosing nitrate is addressing the wrong end of the equation. I would also add that corals actually directly use NH4, not much but they need some and in your case the other things in the tank (aka fuzzy rocks and other shrubbery) are probably absorbing more readily than the corals can. Try feeding your fish a bit more and/or adding another fish or two. Preferably something that will help munch that algae down so it only grows in your fuge. Wish you luck!

 

[sundog101]

Not sure if this should go here, nutrition, or the SPS forum, but here we go.

So my tank has been giving me some mixed signals about my nutrient levels. My SPS are all very pale, and growth is stunted almost to the point of nonexistence. Algae growth is glacial, it takes weeks to dust the glass. I do have pest algae on the rocks, but its growth is also extremely slow, and it largely remains static.

I have never tested detectable nitrates on salifert, and my phosphates have always (since about the first month of the tank) tested below .06 on Hanna ULR checker. Because of the very slow algae growth, I take these test results to be fairly close to the "actual" values.

So, in an effort to remedy this low nutrient system, I started to dose KNO3. I dosed for an increase of exactly 1ppm/day. I did this for 1 week before stopping because algae growth exploded. I monitored nutrients levels closely during this time. Nitrate would fall back to 0ppm by the next day before dosing. Phosphorus remained largely static and within test variance.

Its been a few weeks since Nitrate dosing was attempted and the status quo of very slow algae growth and pale non growing corals has been restored.

So my question is how is it that I seemingly have problems associated with both low and high nutrient systems simultaneously? And also how can I remedy this situation?

I’m in the same boat. My nutrients have been bottomed out for the life of my tank. It drives me crazy and I still can’t really figure it out. So I know what you mean.

My guess would be too much N too fast. In my experience when algae is living in nutrient poor water and is then given nutrients, it’s going to take off and “bloom”. My advice would be to slow down the dosing even more. Also keep in mind the a toothbrush may be the best predator against algae...at least until things balance out.