Moonshiners method feedback

[christwendt]

I think I'm 3 years from doing an actual water change. AFR is my primary additive with 2 part as a secondary. Will be adding kalkwasser as well by dosing pump.

I've been adding seachem iodide and DIY potassium and the corals have responded very well to those two. I asked in a previous thread which were the most common elements from RM that people tend to go through most quickly. It might be fun to know if the AFR people that also use RM could post their top 3-5 elements from RM based on ICP testing both in groups that water change and those that don't water change.

I can actually answer this for the most part. I’m one of very few that I have gathered that use AFR with RMS because reef moonshiner is not recommended to use with other trace elements because of the fear of an element going too high.. I have been using all for reef and on top of my head iodine is huge. Before reef moon shiners my iodine was zero when I was doing AFR so I know AFR lacks iodine.
it’s hard to compare because I always need to add nickel to my tank through rms but it’s such a small amount because it’s well a metal haha as compared to boron/ barium I have to do 600ml. It’s hard to know which elements I’m dosing aren’t doing anything but I don’t think it’s hard to dose them all. I think you are smart to add iodine and potassium on top of AFR although I personally have not really needed to add potassium in months following RMS and AFR. This is very infrequent water changes. 10 gallons monthly to clean sand on 110 gallon total water. Every couple of months I will do a 30 gallon to clean sump and sand really good.

 

[Doctorgori]

….there is some pattern to the comment and post here:
Some of the ole skoolers are natural skeptics, why?

- Skilter, Vibrant, Turbo twist, and thats just with 2 seconds of thought …
…and as for all the different methodologies that have emerged since the Jaubert method…Gheezus ,,,I could make an entire thread… (DSB, BB, Triton, on and on) …..
My point is everything from 5500K daylight tubes to 50% daily water changes with NO Filters work and can grow corals…maybe with even less cost and effort than RM ….maybe…

But in my decades of dropping zillions on corals, you tell me no water changes and I’m big sucker, and I’m all ears… I hate water changes

…so you folks that have bought into this RM think hook line and sinker; how much time are you spending everyday with beakers and eyedroppers?

Is it really a big upgrade over siphoning up urchin poo and replacing 5% of you water daily? (thats not a smart alec rhetorical question)
Added: I’m not playing skeptic but honestly being open minded and considering it ….

 

[Stang67]

fwiw I am no longer following this thread because it has not stayed on topic and has become a PSSG match bw sides. Thanks to everyone who read the original post and provided what I requested.

 

[IKD]

…so you folks that have bought into this RM think hook line and sinker; how much time are you spending everyday with beakers and eyedroppers?

Is it really a big upgrade over siphoning up urchin poo and replacing 5% of you water daily? (thats not a smart alec rhetorical question)

Good timing, I just clocked myself doing the dosing this morning as I wasn’t sure myself. I dose 8 bottles daily and it took ~3mins. The syringe cap/setup is convenient or else I could see this being a pain (attached picture). I have the measurements memorized at this point which does speed things up. I can’t speak for others. This is just my input, and RM is too new for me to have become a bother yet. I told myself I would give this six months and see. I didn’t do this to avoid water changes or address declining coral health. I have an auto setup for WC and my tank was fine, but just ‘fine’. I wanted to see if this could improve growth and coloration of my acro’s on an already stable tank

 

[Mattiejay6]

….there is some pattern to the comment and post here:
Some of the ole skoolers are natural skeptics, why?

- Skilter, Vibrant, Turbo twist, and thats just with 2 seconds of thought …
…and as for all the different methodologies that have emerged since the Jaubert method…Gheezus ,,,I could make an entire thread… (DSB, BB, Triton, on and on) …..
My point is everything from 5500K daylight tubes to 50% daily water changes with NO Filters work and can grow corals…maybe with even less cost and effort than RM ….maybe…

But in my decades of dropping zillions on corals, you tell me no water changes and I’m big sucker, and I’m all ears… I hate water changes

…so you folks that have bought into this RM think hook line and sinker; how much time are you spending everyday with beakers and eyedroppers?

Is it really a big upgrade over siphoning up urchin poo and replacing 5% of you water daily? (thats not a smart alec rhetorical question)
Added: I’m not playing skeptic but honestly being open minded and considering it ….

I spend 5 mins

 

[KStatefan]

fwiw I am no longer following this thread because it has not stayed on topic and has become a PSSG match bw sides. Thanks to everyone who read the original post and provided what I requested.

It really took a downturn a few pages ago.

 

[Doctorgori]

Good timing, I just clocked myself doing the dosing this morning as I wasn’t sure myself. I dose 8 bottles daily and it took ~3mins. The syringe cap/setup is convenient or else I could see this being a pain (attached picture). I have the measurements memorized at this point which does speed things up. I can’t speak for others. This is just my input, and RM is too new for me to have become a bother yet. I told myself I would give this six months and see. I didn’t do this to avoid water changes or address declining coral health. I have an auto setup for WC and my tank was fine, but just ‘fine’. I wanted to see if this could improve growth and coloration of my acro’s on an already stable tank

I can’t speak for the OP or others…but I think this is EXACTLY the type of feedback that is useful for me. Also relevant is the size of the tank and the investment already in it…. maybe if you got colonies of Jason Fox this and that and thousands in sticks, torches, scolys, et a few mins a day playing Dr Funkenstien might be worth it ….

 

[Stang67]

It really took a downturn a few pages ago.

It's a shame. But hey is what it is.

 

[Doctorgori]

Have one box of reef crystals left. I am at the point where I need to decide if I want to try the moonshine method, something else, or keep doing water changes.
180g w 40g sump
Mixed reef atm but would like to get into sticks a bit more.
Medium bioload.
For those of you that Shine do you like it? How long, what other methods have you used.
Pro cons

fwiw I am no longer following this thread because it has not stayed on topic and has become a PSSG match bw sides. Thanks to everyone who read the original post and provided what I requested.

@Stang67
This thread addresses a trendy method and you can expect filler, arguments and sidetracks, but you started a good thread and its scope and subject is more public service and broader than individual needs, (thats even if you originated it).
…. But I get your frustration as this format wasn’t “Exactly” followed:

1) For those of you that Shine do you like it?
2) How long, what other methods have you used.
3) Pro cons

Added: I personally would like to know:
4) initial cost
5) Time spent
6) Daily routines and your modified methodology
7) Knowlege base resources (sites, social media, pubs, gurus, et)

Again, personally I for one am interested in RM and like @Stang67 water changes are going to be a issue for me going forward. I could use BOTH direct feedback AND opinions against (I am also a ole skool skeptic)…

…just suggesting the thread continue with the OP’s participation and blessings…

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley Verified Community Expert]

It's a shame. But hey is what it is.

IMO, this is exactly how threads should work.

In the past 10 pages of responses, many people have answered your question exactly as you posted it, and others have provided additional discussion around this question.

 

[Stang67]

IMO, this is exactly how threads should work.

In the past 10 pages of responses, many people have answered your question exactly as you posted it, and others have provided additional discussion around this question.

Thanks

 

[Stang67]

@Stang67
This thread addresses a trendy method and you can expect filler, arguments and sidetracks, but you started a good thread and its scope and subject is more public service and broader than individual needs, (thats even if you originated it).
…. But I get your frustration as this format wasn’t “Exactly” followed:

1) For those of you that Shine do you like it?
2) How long, what other methods have you used.
3) Pro cons

Again, personally I for one am interested in RM and like @Stang67 water changes are going to be a issue for me going forward. I could use BOTH direct feedback AND opinions against (I am also a ole skool skeptic)…

…just suggesting the thread continue with the OP’s participation and blessings…

You all can go ahead I'm just out. Thanks though again to all of those that followed the brief.

 

[Reefahholic]

I can actually answer this for the most part. I’m one of very few that I have gathered that use AFR with RMS because reef moonshiner is not recommended to use with other trace elements because of the fear of an element going too high.. I have been using all for reef and on top of my head iodine is huge. Before reef moon shiners my iodine was zero when I was doing AFR so I know AFR lacks iodine.
it’s hard to compare because I always need to add nickel to my tank through rms but it’s such a small amount because it’s well a metal haha as compared to boron/ barium I have to do 600ml. It’s hard to know which elements I’m dosing aren’t doing anything but I don’t think it’s hard to dose them all. I think you are smart to add iodine and potassium on top of AFR although I personally have not really needed to add potassium in months following RMS and AFR. This is very infrequent water changes. 10 gallons monthly to clean sand on 110 gallon total water. Every couple of months I will do a 30 gallon to clean sump and sand really good.

Some of the heavy hitters with RMS are Flouride, Barium, Boron, Moly…

 

[Doctorgori]

You all can go ahead I'm just out. Thanks though again to all of those that followed the brief.

Understand….So Won’t argue or beg ya to stick around but I am curious about what you have learned or decided …. (if I could drag one more post outta ya)

Thanks (sincerely as I share a similar curiousity/indecision )

 

[ReeferB28]

I've been reefing for over 20 years. And working in the industry for the past 15. I've seen all kinds of different methodologies regarding Trace elements, etc.

While, I'm not doubting the effectiveness of the Moonshiners program, I am skeptical as far as the cost, Etc. This hobby thrives on over complication of an easy process. There is nothing wrong with complete two-part dosing which gets you the same results as Moonshiners. I've been using ATI Essentials Pro, and it's always been consistent. Corals that weren't growing, grew. Corals that had coloration loss regained it, etc.

The best combination I've seen personally across countless reef tanks for service clients, is either reef crystals and ATI Essentials Pro, or the Red Sea Pro salt with the ATI combo. Corals tell you all you need to know by simply looking at them. Just my opinion.

 

[Stang67]

Understand….So Won’t argue or beg ya to stick around but I am curious about what you have learned or decided …. (if I could drag one more post outta ya)

Thanks (sincerely as I share a similar curiousity/indecision )

No worries my situation is I have had my dream tank set up for about a year and a half now. Gotten through all the crazy. Now trying to figure out what I need to do to get it to be my "DREAM" tank. Do I need to focus on parameters, if so what's the best method (for my situation). Should I focus on augmenting my lighting (add t5s). Basically trying to figure out where I need to go from here to be successful in my next set of goals with this tank. I will be trying the method after the first of the year. Between now and then I hope to aquire 1 more fish and get a hood on the tank along with some additional lights. I also have a Kamoer AWC system I would like to set up and try first. I have been researching this method as well as others for almost a year. End goal is to make the tank and everyone in it as happy as I can by whatever methods are within my budget. Do I care about the science? Or whether one thing is proven to work? No. I am not splitting hairs or expecting scientifically repeatable results. I am looking for a way to make my tank happy and get me more in sync with what is going on with it. I am past the age of all the science I just want to have fun, tinker a bit and enjoy my tank when I sit down on the couch to watch the game. Simple as that.

 

[CNDReef]

@Stang67
This thread addresses a trendy method and you can expect filler, arguments and sidetracks, but you started a good thread and its scope and subject is more public service and broader than individual needs, (thats even if you originated it).
…. But I get your frustration as this format wasn’t “Exactly” followed:

1) For those of you that Shine do you like it?
2) How long, what other methods have you used.
3) Pro cons

Added: I personally would like to know:
4) initial cost
5) Time spent
6) Daily routines and your modified methodology
7) Knowlege base resources (sites, social media, pubs, gurus, et)

Again, personally I for one am interested in RM and like @Stang67 water changes are going to be a issue for me going forward. I could use BOTH direct feedback AND opinions against (I am also a ole skool skeptic)…

…just suggesting the thread continue with the OP’s participation and blessings…

1) For those of you that Shine do you like it?
I love it.
2) How long, what other methods have you used.
I will be on the shine for 4 years in November and haven’t done a water change yet
3) Pro cons
For me the biggest pro is no water change but the corals also love it

Added: I personally would like to know:
4) initial cost
Cost of everything for a 100 gallon tank is around $350 I’d say but most of those will last you for years.
5) Time spent
I spend about 5 min daily and then doing corrections monthly that might add another couple of minutes for a week.
6) Daily routines and your modified methodology
I do the daily’s ( every tank has different needs of these) and look at my corals and flip some snails over lol. I started rms to avoid lugging and mixing water with my baby around ( live in a condo) and besides saving on salt I also save on water , membranes, carbon pre filters and DI resin. I only make top off water now and that means I don’t have to dig out the rodi unit behind everything in the sink less often.
7) Knowlege base resources (sites, social media, pubs, gurus, et)
The whole method is on the reef moonshiners web page and we use a Facebook group to share , ask questions and learn from eachother and especially from Andre who made it all possible.

 

[Reefahholic]

….there is some pattern to the comment and post here:
Some of the ole skoolers are natural skeptics, why?

- Skilter, Vibrant, Turbo twist, and thats just with 2 seconds of thought …
…and as for all the different methodologies that have emerged since the Jaubert method…Gheezus ,,,I could make an entire thread… (DSB, BB, Triton, on and on) …..
My point is everything from 5500K daylight tubes to 50% daily water changes with NO Filters work and can grow corals…maybe with even less cost and effort than RM ….maybe…

But in my decades of dropping zillions on corals, you tell me no water changes and I’m big sucker, and I’m all ears… I hate water changes

…so you folks that have bought into this RM think hook line and sinker; how much time are you spending everyday with beakers and eyedroppers?

Is it really a big upgrade over siphoning up urchin poo and replacing 5% of you water daily? (thats not a smart alec rhetorical question)
Added: I’m not playing skeptic but honestly being open minded and considering it ….

It’s an upgrade, because you’re literally replenishing the entire chemistry, and before most people start the method they weren’t keeping the entire chemistry in check. It’s always clear from the first ICP. You see the same values. Basically a lot of elements low or depleted. You can tell if it’s a new system, or somebody is dosing X product, etc.

Nobody has to keep the RMS target levels, but most do because the color is better and you have more of a safe zone due to our higher target ranges. Some users prefer higher values for elements like Manganese if they have LPS. Or maybe they want their Iodine or Potassium higher/lower. ALK, CAL, and MAG are up to the individual user, but we try to recommend something without traces because at least 1-2 elements eventually start to drift out of range. Sometimes really high. Some users are
really set on a product, and what to run it alongside RMS, but later you typically see them switching due to interference.

The only thing that is really set in stone is that our tools obviously work with Andre’s RMS elements. You can’t take a Triton element and make corrections with our tools, because it’s a different potency. (Yes, I’ve stopped a few from nuking their systems) Likewise, you’d want to avoid using a RMS element with Triton’s guidance. Nobody builds their calculators to accommodate other products. That wouldn’t make much sense.

 

[Reefahholic]

Good timing, I just clocked myself doing the dosing this morning as I wasn’t sure myself. I dose 8 bottles daily and it took ~3mins. The syringe cap/setup is convenient or else I could see this being a pain (attached picture). I have the measurements memorized at this point which does speed things up. I can’t speak for others. This is just my input, and RM is too new for me to have become a bother yet. I told myself I would give this six months and see. I didn’t do this to avoid water changes or address declining coral health. I have an auto setup for WC and my tank was fine, but just ‘fine’. I wanted to see if this could improve growth and coloration of my acro’s on an already stable tank

Have you looked into the Cobalt Blue bottles for dailies.

 

[Reefahholic]

There is nothing wrong with complete two-part dosing which gets you the same results as Moonshiners. I've been using ATI Essentials Pro, and it's always been consistent.

This is hard to understand. Same results?

How would a few bottles that have “predetermined” ratios ever compare with individual elements. RMS will always win with precision and control.

When you put several elements into a few bottles you loose control of the elements. It’s just that simple. If even one element starts to become overdosed…you have zero ability to stop it without stopping the other elements in the bottle. If one element is not meeting consumption demand, you have to increase the whole bottle which also increases every other element in the bottle. Or the other option is you will need to add another product to increase that one element. So please explain how this would get you the same results as RMS.