IKD
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I’ll contact you separately. Not clear on the purpose of those other than UV protection but I may be missing something
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Off topic but I wanted to thank you for posting this video. I sat down the other eve on pc (too small on phone) and watched the entire video. It was really interesting seeing the amount of effort JF has put into obtaining his corals. It also reminds me how success can be obtained by keeping things simple. Its so easy to get caught up in all the tech and testing available these days. Not saying it's bad but it's nice to have it reinforced that it isn't required to be succesful.
The highlight of the video tho for me was when someone asked him what he keeps his pH at. His reply I don't know I've never checked it
…Appreciate that,….
Hardly arguing at all, but like @jda I’m a lil skeptical of ICP interpretations of those base elements like barium (or whatever!) because for all I know given my chemistry knowledge; “x amount of unobtanium” could be just some part of Dioxin or insecticide AFAIK …
Basically you get past the basics like Iron, Iodine, manganese’s, et et (things I know that are uptake’s as “base elements”) the rest of the ICP percentages are meaningless to this neophyte.
So Admittedly when given a choice I do give bias to pH’d opinions like RHF (as chief chemist of the Illuminati)
esp when he says unobtanium has no proven biological role….Edit add: FWIW I do follow your “proof is in the pudding” logic tho… if your corals are popping for an additional 5min a day, I’m not arguing that either….
Off topic but I wanted to thank you for posting this video. I sat down the other eve on pc (too small on phone) and watched the entire video. It was really interesting seeing the amount of effort JF has put into obtaining his corals. It also reminds me how success can be obtained by keeping things simple. Its so easy to get caught up in all the tech and testing available these days. Not saying it's bad but it's nice to have it reinforced that it isn't required to be succesful.
The highlight of the video tho for me was when someone asked him what he keeps his pH at. His reply I don't know I've never checked it
Yeah, he’s about as simple as it gets. I’ve always enjoyed that video. When you have systems that large it’s hard to get too crazy with dosing.
There is something to be said for that, I’d wager I wasn’t the only one who dripped kalkwasser for years without ever checking my pH or alkalinity really (and if so with nothing better than a API kit) …I would dump in Kent “Hardness Booster” or SeaChems “Reef Plus” or Calcum this or that or whatever its called without a care….this methodology went on for years…Off topic but I wanted to thank you for posting this video. I sat down the other eve on pc (too small on phone) and watched the entire video. It was really interesting seeing the amount of effort JF has put into obtaining his corals. It also reminds me how success can be obtained by keeping things simple. Its so easy to get caught up in all the tech and testing available these days. Not saying it's bad but it's nice to have it reinforced that it isn't required to be succesful.
The highlight of the video tho for me was when someone asked him what he keeps his pH at. His reply I don't know I've never checked it
OTOH, no disrespect to that reefer person but sheer luck and a proven routine also plays a role
…Appreciate that,….
Hardly arguing at all, but like @jda I’m a lil skeptical of ICP interpretations of those base elements like barium (or whatever!) because for all I know given my chemistry knowledge; “x amount of unobtanium” could be just some part of Dioxin or insecticide AFAIK …
Basically you get past the basics like Iron, Iodine, manganese’s, et et (things I know that are uptake’s as “base elements”) the rest of the ICP percentages are meaningless to this neophyte.
So Admittedly when given a choice I do give bias to pH’d opinions like RHF (as chief chemist of the Illuminati)
Edit add: FWIW I do follow your “proof is in the pudding” logic tho… if your corals are popping for an additional 5min a day, I’m not arguing that either….
Yeah, I mean it’s kinda a leap off a ledge from some I guess. If you think about it logically, and put RMS aside for a moment it’s really a smart way to reef. Water Chemistry is what we’re really keeping in this hobby. Not only are we correcting the entire chemistry, we’re also watching source water and looking for pollutants. People can portray all the negatives they want, but this method has proven itself to me and many others. If some elements bother you, my suggestion would be avoid them. Or maybe try your own small experiments. Dose a little of X element slowly and see if you appreciate any positives or negatives. You don’t see many people come in that say they don’t like it. I can’t even think of one. If you’re not good at nutrient management, just keep doing water changes. Some people still do water changes, and most will tell you they are still needing to correct many elements. Partially because we elevate elements and water changes even at 100% are not able to get you to RMS levels, but also because water changes are typically not enough. The volume of the WC needs to be quite large to supplement all the low elements, but that’s only if the elements are there to begin with. Not all salt brands are created equally.
Randy Holmes-Farley
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The inorganic portion, anyway.
Organics are still largely unmeasured and uncontrolled except by sledgehammer approaches such as GAC.
Yeah it’s a bummer that organics are not easily tested for at home.
On OCEAMO’s ICP-OES he was measuring total Phosphorus with ICP (Atom P), and Orthophosphate using a Photometer.
Now on ICP-MS he’s only testing Orthophosphate, but there’s a nutrient stabilizer added to the one blue cap vial dedicated solely for the purpose which reduces or freezes microbial activity, and with the added filter it also limits the amount of bacteria going into the sample. I find it pretty accurate, but still wish we were getting the total Phosphorus value as well.
It was pretty accurate with my Hanna Phosphorus ULR. I can’t complain too much.
Acros
Valuable Member
If you can, please send 2 with the same water (marked as different systems). That will bring a lot of clarity on ICP-MS reliability.
This is the plan. Gather 3 kits from most of the ICP companies, fill them with the same water, label them all as different tanks, then send them in. Might have to make one of the kits a “control” in some way. I’d look to RHF and taricha on how to best control this.
But in the end, I don’t feel like dropping $500+ to show something that’s already been shown multiple times by multiple people. The results won’t match. They won’t even be close either.
shakacuz
hang loose, cuz
this is exactly why i stopped dosing AFR. my trace elements were very high on my first ICP and it was because of the AFR. i had no control over how much of the trace elements were going in, just of how much ALK/CAL/MAG was being dose based on the dosage..
all in all, if it works for you, great! i find the shiner method to be fool proof and one of, if not, the best form of stability i could have in my reef
On a serious note, we’ve seen a lot of comparisons with different companies in our group. It’s primarily related to cost. People are always trying to convince that A,B,C, etc…may be better because of the low price tag. So we already know the good and bad. None of them will ever be perfect, but neither is anything else. Andre sends every 2 weeks, and has tried them all. Many of us have used different companies just to compare. So really nothing new will be learned.
You can come into our group and use the search function, and go back 5+ years and see all the exact data you’re looking for, but I welcome you to try your own experiment if you have the money.
Well, I highly recommend getting just one to check on your reef. You’ll be glad you did.
I tied to search your salt experiment results one day and couldn’t located them. Send a link if you can. I’d like to check it out just to know.
Acros
Valuable Member
Looks like our resident scientists already compared some of the ICP companies. Oceamo or ICP-MS was not included in this experiment.
Adding Oceamo data would be really useful.
How We Use ICP-OES Results Of Unknown Accuracy And Precision
A quantitative Method of Evaluating ICP-OES Results
www.reef2reef.com
I send ICP every few months on my tank. Have for years. Numbers were almost spot on after 9 months off RM and switching to the BRS balling hybrid method. 3 dosing pumps and done.
Link for my salt test is in my signature. Ultimate Salt Test if you want to search
Dr. Joshi included Oceamo and another MS test in his paper. This was linked earlier, I think. For those who do not know, Dr. Joshi has been an awesome resource for reefers for more than thirty years.
Here are some quotes:
The Reef Builders’ Big ICP Test Review, by Sanjay Joshi | Reef Builders | The Reef and Saltwater Aquarium Blog
Initially introduced to the hobby market by Triton, ICP tests have been around for several years now and have become a staple in the hobby. The allure of these tests has been the relatively cheap…
reefbuilders.com
Here are some quotes:
