msm in a reef

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mainereefer

mainereefer

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I have been dosing msm (Methylsulfonylmethane) for a few years, I think it is amazing that this stuff is most abundant in the ocean but I have never seen it sold for a reef tank?
just wondering if anyone else has used this in a reef? results related info wanted....

any info Randy?
 
Why do you dose it, and why do you think there is a significant amount in the ocean?

I wouldn't be inclined to believe the MSM miracle stuff you read from folks selling it.
 
research was done by university's... not by the people selling it...
the reason I add it is the same reason I feed my corals, they may not "need it" but they grow bigger and faster with it.
everything natural has msm in it the problem is it evaporates extremely fast so needs to be replenished frequently. the reason dogs eat grass... for humans unless you eat fresh picked fruit and veggies and drink rain water we dont get enough, it is processed out of our food .
I apply the same thinking to my tank,everything that goes in it is processed not to mention it is naturally more abundant in the ocean than any where else. so the question is,it is most abundant in the ocean (proven by allot of scientists) why dont we have it in our tanks?

I have had positive effects but havent done any "Tests" tank that gets it corals grow faster and polyps expand bigger but there are other variables involved between the to tanks I have...
 
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Orphek OR3 reef aquarium LED bar
Do you have any publications describing its research or properties that might benefit an aquarium?

Universities usually study what someone paid them to study, and for products like this one where it is not mainstream science, such funding is often by people selling it.

As best I can determine, there is very little of it in seawater, it is not required by any organism that I've seen, and there is little reason to think it is anything more than an unusual carbon source to drive bacterial growth, as vinegar and vodka do.

So sorry, but I'm highly skeptical of any benefit and personally wouldn't dose it. :)
 
Would love to see the source paper on this, I know MSM is/has been studied for treating osteoarthritis but thats all I have ever heard of it.
 
www.dinkinsaquaticgardens.com
mainereefer said:
everything natural has msm in it the problem is it evaporates extremely fast so needs to be replenished frequently. .
Click to expand...

FWIW, I disagree with much of what you wrote, but that part above, at least, is easily debunked.

Dimethylsulfone (or what you call MSM or methane sulfonyl methane) is a solid with a melting point above 100 deg C and a boiling point of 238 deg C:

Methylsulfonylmethane - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

As such, you won't notice any significant evaporation in any reasonable period of time from a chunk of it sitting in your home or dissolved into aquarium water.
 
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sorry but I wouldnt put to much faith in wikipedia....

I find countless articles written and 99% say basically the same thing. here is a quote

"By Ronald M. Lawrence, M.D., Ph.D.
Assistant Clinical Professor U.C.L.A. School of Medicine
Los Angeles, California
Methyl-Sulfonyl-Methane (M.S.M.) is an organic sulfur compound which is a metabolite of dimethyl-sulfoxide (D.M.S.O.). It is a white, odorless, slightly bitter tasting, crystalline substance, which contains 34 percent elemental sulfur. It is easily soluble in water. Its chemical formula is (DH3)2SO2. It has been suggested by Lovelock and his associate's (1) that M.S.M. and its related compounds D.M.S.O. and D.M.S. (dimethyl-sulfide) provide 85 percent of the sulfur found in all living organisms.
The cycle of these naturally occurring sulfur compounds begins in the ocean where microscopic plankton release sulfur compounds called dimethyl-sulfonium salts. These salts are transformed in the ocean into the very volatile compound D.M.S. which escapes from the water as a gas which rises into the upper atmosphere. Exposed to ozone and high energy ultraviolet light the D.M.S. is converted to D.M.S.O. and M.S.M. Both the D.M.S.O. and M.S.M. are very soluble in water and they return to the surface of the earth in rainwater. Plants then take up the two compounds into their root systems concentrating them up to one hundred fold. M.S.M. (sulfur) is incorporated into the plant structure. Through the process of plant metabolism the M.S.M., along with the other sulfur compounds it has spawned, are ultimately mineralized and transported back to the ocean and the sulfur cycle begins again. "

and here is a link to a study done in the ocean with types of phytoplankton and effects on iron and co2....... (I cant understand much of the "scientific stuff" lol )
https://tel.archives-ouvertes.fr/hal-00946771/document
 
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You should read your own quote carefully. It says that dimethyl sulfide is what evaporates and is converted in the air into MSM.

I don't at all doubt it is part of the sulfur cycle (it certainly is), but the boiling point is unquestionably 238 deg C (according to sources like the Merck Index) and MSM will not evaporate away from a reef tank in any appreciable amount. :)
 
mainereefer said:
and here is a link to a study done in the ocean with types of phytoplankton and effects on iron and co2....... (I cant understand much of the "scientific stuff" lol )
https://tel.archives-ouvertes.fr/hal-00946771/document
Click to expand...

I've skimmed over that study, and could not find any reference to MSM. Did I miss it? They are discussing other molecules, such as DMSO (similar molecule with one less oxygen atom), DMS( similar but with 2 less oxygem atoms) and DMSP (a larger molecule).

In fact, in a very very quick literature search, I wasn't able to find any measurements of MSM in seawater. Do you have such a value and a study showing it?
 
from what I have read msm is basically dms and dmso but these are very unstable, when they evaporate the clouds crystallize them and they come back with rainwater as msm (a stable molecule)

the issue is all the studies are done on dms and dmso. and we have to go back to those studies and assume msm is close to the same. docs and scientests refer to dmso when asked about msm so this is what I have to do...
and the reason I am asking an expert in reef chemistry about this ;)

just makes sense to me that we would benefit from having this in a reef.
I have to say the tank I dosed I had blasto polyps that opened to about 4"+ across any other tank they maybe get to 2"
 
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I'm not a reef chemist but I am a molecular biologist and I don't really see any support of it beneficial to dose MSM in a reef tank. Neither paper talk about it in manner that you are refering to it, I don't think it hurts to dose it but I doubt it helps.
 
mainereefer said:
from what I have read msm is basically dms and dmso but these are very unstable, when they evaporate the clouds crystallize them and they come back with rainwater as msm (a stable molecule)

the issue is all the studies are done on dms and dmso. and we have to go back to those studies and assume msm is close to the same. docs and scientests refer to dmso when asked about msm so this is what I have to do...
and the reason I am asking an expert in reef chemistry about this ;)

just makes sense to me that we would benefit from having this in a reef.
I have to say the tank I dosed I had blasto polyps that opened to about 4"+ across any other tank they maybe get to 2"
Click to expand...

Sorry, but that makes no sense. It is equivalent to saying that diamond, carbon monoxide, and carbon dioxide should have similar properties since they only vary by having one oxygen atom difference, just as DMS, DMSO and MSM are just one oxygen atom different.

MSM, DMSO and DMSP are three different chemicals. Yes, the first two can slowly be oxidized to MSM, but they are not "unstable", and observing a property of DMSO and thinking that MSM might have the same property isn't sensible. Also, MSM won't spontaneously become either DMS or DMSO.

DMSO is a very widely used liquid solvent in chemistry labs. I've used it dozens of times. MSM is a crystalline solid. Very different. As stated above, it is EXACTLY the same difference as between carbon monoxide and carbon dioxide: one extra oxygen atom. Almost no biological or chemical property of one is similar to the other.
 
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so you are saying nothing in a reef tank will use msm? or nothing will benefit from any of the 3 related chemicals? (dms,dmso,msm)

you guys are the experts I can only go by what I read...
everything I read says
plankton creates dms, dms evaporates then ozone and uv change dms into dmso and msm. then the plankton use the dmso and msm to make more dms..... it is a natural part of the oceans process...

why wouldnt we try and keep this process in a reef tank?
would coral use these plankton in any way?
does any other planktivore use thse plankton?
or as stated "unusual carbon source to drive bacterial growth" would this just be natures way of carbon dosing?

not trying to argue just lots of questions I cant find answers to.
 
Bacteria will for sure metabolize MSM, just like vinegar, vodka, sugar, etc.

The question is whether it does anything useful beyond that.

You are picking out one organic molecule out of dozens involved in various cycles, and not even one that is one of the primary players. So the question for you is why you think it is better than dosing lots of other things, even DMSO.

And you are dosing blind, not having any idea how much MSM is in seawater. Perhaps you are adding a thousand times higher concentration. Is that a desirable mimic of the ocean?

FWIW, here's a copy of the marine sulfur cycle produced by the Woods Hole Oceanographic Institute. There is no mention of MSM as a key player:

DMSP_cycle_37464.jpg


The author has a project to study organic sulfur cycling in the ocean. Again, no headline mention of MSM:

Research Projects > Levine Laboratory > USC Dana and David Dornsife College of Letters, Arts and Sciences

What drives organic sulfur cycling in the surface ocean and what are the potential climate feedbacks?

A large fraction of the surface ocean food web is active in producing and cycling both dimethylsulfoniopropionate (DMSP) and dimethylsulfide (DMS). In addition to the potential climatic significance of DMS production, the role that these compounds play in mediating ecosystem dynamics remains unknown. We combine measurements of functional gene abundance and expression with chemical measurements to understand the production and cycling of dimethylsulfide (DMS) at both open ocean and coastal sites.
 
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FWIW, if I thought it was desirable to add organosulfur compounds to a reef aquarium, I'd be much more inclined to dose a sulfur containing amino acid, such as cysteine.

It is used by every organism, it is a ready source of metabolizable sulfur (if that is desirable), and it is known to be present in the ocean. It is even on the chart above under "amino acids". :)
 
see this is where I get confused....

Organic Sulfur — ORGANIC SULFUR is also called DMSO2 (dimethylsulfoxide2) and MSM (methylsulfonylmethane). Still others, usually chemists, refer to it as dimethylsulfone—four names for the same compound; however, not all organic sulfur is made the same way, and they don't have the same standards of purity in manufacture.
 
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after looking up cysteine, not sure where I would be able to get it. you need a prescription....
 
Avast
mainereefer said:
after looking up cysteine, not sure where I would be able to get it. you need a prescription....
Click to expand...

You must have mistyped. Google shopping lists lots of vendors. It is an amino acid supplement that people take OTC. :)
 
mainereefer said:
see this is where I get confused....

Organic Sulfur — ORGANIC SULFUR is also called DMSO2 (dimethylsulfoxide2) and MSM (methylsulfonylmethane). Still others, usually chemists, refer to it as dimethylsulfone—four names for the same compound; however, not all organic sulfur is made the same way, and they don't have the same standards of purity in manufacture.
Click to expand...

Yes, I understand how the names can be very confusing. In college, memorizing names and reactions of organic molecules was my least favorite subject.

In the quote above, you need to note that DMSO and DMSO2 are different, with the latter being MSM, while DMSO is different.
 
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