My Current QT Process

[blackstallion]

If it is the one I am using from this thread, it's 2 weeks on copper, starting when you are at "therapeutic dose", combined with 2 weeks Metroplex, a tank change, then 2 weeks on General Cure, then a final 2 week observation period.

With a couple of suggestions for other meds if specific things are suspected.

And copper and chloroquine phosphate seem to be somewhat interchangeable, so pick one (likely copper, as chloroquine phosphate seems basically impossible to find at the moment).

--Gray

The calendar on page 59 keeps therapeutic levels for 30 days since it does not state to switch tanks at 14 days, AND, at the very end on day 35 it talks about the WC and poly filter (I assume to remove copper).

Is there another one you're using?

 

[gray808]

I was basing mine off that, plus going over OPs ... well.. original post:

I start fish off on food soaked general cure + Focus day one (continue for 14 days).
...
Then I spend the next three days raising cu level to 2.0PPM.
...
After 14 days of therapeutic copper I transfer to a 2nd sterile QT. Temp/salinity matching.
...
After the transfer if I have a fish that is still showing signs of infection I would run a 14 day course of NFG. If no signs of infection is present I would skip NFG.
...
Last step is two rounds of Praziquantel using either GC or Prazipro. I prefer GC as it contains metronidazole as well and covers a few other diseases like Brook and uronema. This treatment is dosed into the water column to treat externally, as I have covered internal issues during copper with the food soaked meds.
...
14 Days of observation post medications prior to transfer to DT in order to make sure the fish are healthy and disease free.

So, I guess I did modify that calendar a bit, to match what OP had said.

--Gray

 

[blackstallion]

@HotRocks if one were to follow your OP, however, instead of transferring the fish on day 14 to a new sterile tank, continue therapeutic Cu for the full 30 days, would your instruction for the second 14 day period still apply and be safe to administer in the presence of the Cu?

I realize the preferred or updated method is TTM at day 14, but for those that do not have multiple QT tanks, could this be a reasonable compromise?

 

[CK00020]

Where on the calendar does it say to transfer to a new tank, just saying?

 

[blackstallion]

Where on the calendar does it say to transfer to a new tank, just saying?

It doesn't, and there's the rub. Instruction in the OP is predicated on transferring the medicated fish out of the tank around the two week mark.

The author of this calendar (which was not the original poster) tailored it to his own needs, which is not necessarily a problem.

 

[gray808]

I believe the 14 days with copper is supposed to kill all the ich critters in the fish. The transfer to a new sterile tank means there are no more trophonts... so no more ich possible. As long as you don't put the fish somewhere with sand, rock, or other hard things that could even theoretically have the trophonts, they are clear.
The rest is for other pests.

--Gray

 

[blackstallion]

I believe the 14 days with copper is supposed to kill all the ich critters in the fish. The transfer to a new sterile tank means there are no more trophonts... so no more ich possible. As long as you don't put the fish somewhere with sand, rock, or other hard things that could even theoretically have the trophonts, they are clear.
The rest is for other pests.

--Gray

Right, but the majority do not have multiple tanks to transfer back and forth from, so, that's where the 30 days comes in.

So my question was, in lieu of tank transfer, if I leave in for 30 days with Cu, will I be able to treat with Prazi and anything that was instructed in that time frame?

 

[gray808]

I think the 14 day copper is that fish (some? most?) have problems with copper, so the idea is keep them in long enough to cure/treat ich, but no longer, to limit their copper exposure. If you stay with one tank, and do not transfer to a sterile tank, then any hard surface (tank wall, floor, sand, water filter, bubbler, etc, could all have trophonts on them, and immediately reinfect your fish.

For ich, again to the best of my reading of this and other threads, fish need to be in copper/choraquine phosphate for 14 days to kill the ich on/in the fish itself, and hard goods and other places the trophants can attach need to be fishless for 75 days. From my reading, I don't see how you can avoid at least one tank transfer.

Perhaps transfer to a sterile (large) bucket, with it's own sterile heater and bubbler/powerhead, then bleach and airdry the original QT tank, and once it is sterile, back into it for the final 28 days?

--Gray

 

[blackstallion]

Per @Humblefish and his original how to QT thread below, he instructs holding in QT for 30 days at therapeutic Cu levels to erradicate parasites. I would have to assume tons of people have used this method successfully over the years.

I don't dispute that the TTM is probably an evolution of his original method, BUT, I would have to assume that 30 days in the same tank at therapeutic levels is still a valid approach?

How to Quarantine

How to Setup a Quarantine Tank The following are the bare essentials: Aquarium (10-30 gallons seems to work for most people. Bigger QT lets you house more fish and gives you more wiggle room when it comes to ammonia. Smaller QT is cheaper, easier to maintain and can be setup/broke down...

www.reef2reef.com

 

[gray808]

Ok, I'll try one more time.
I am not describing TTM.
I am going over the info that was given in this thread.

And that is that if you have hard surfaces that the trophonts can attach to (including the tank walls), then you need that tank to be fishless for 75 days to guarantee that those trophonts cannot re-infect fish.
I don't know how running it with fish and copper for 75 days would work, I have to assume it would not be good for the fish.

Again, someone corrects me if I am wrong but I believe this is the lifecycle: ich trophonts (I think these are like cysts) burst, releasing the free-swimming stage into the water column. This can happen any time from the time the trophont is formed and latches onto something hard, up to 75 days later. The free swimmers look for fish, and attach to them, causing ich (I'm unsure if there is a 3rd form, that the free-swimmers become, inside the fish). After some time those infected fish then release more trophonts into the water, starting the cycle over.

So if you have ich in your tank, you have to assume the hard surfaces have trophonts, and that they will release free swimmers every day for 75 days. If you have fish in that water, they will be infected. Copper or chloroquine phosphate kills the parasite in the fish. It does not kill the trophonts. So, if you let the fish go for 30 days in copper, it has killed the parasite in the fish itself but has not done anything to the trophonts at all. I am unclear if the trophonts can be on the skin of the fish, but I don't think so. However, I think 30 days in copper is going to start running into issues with fish health.
This is why the 14 days copper, followed by transferring the fish and sterilizing the QT tank is suggested: the fish will be cured of any ich they might have had, the QT tank is sterilized, removing the trophonts, then you have 14-28 days to treat the fish in non-copper water with other meds for parasites and diseases, without them having to be in copper, and without any chance of encrusted trophonts releasing more free-swimming ich parasites.

Tank Transfer method does the same but requires a tank swap every (IIRC) 72 hours, several times.

--Gray

 

[blackstallion]

Ok, I'll try one more time.
I am not describing TTM.
I am going over the info that was given in this thread.

And that is that if you have hard surfaces that the trophonts can attach to (including the tank walls), then you need that tank to be fishless for 75 days to guarantee that those trophonts cannot re-infect fish.
I don't know how running it with fish and copper for 75 days would work, I have to assume it would not be good for the fish.

Again, someone corrects me if I am wrong but I believe this is the lifecycle: ich trophonts (I think these are like cysts) burst, releasing the free-swimming stage into the water column. This can happen any time from the time the trophont is formed and latches onto something hard, up to 75 days later. The free swimmers look for fish, and attach to them, causing ich (I'm unsure if there is a 3rd form, that the free-swimmers become, inside the fish). After some time those infected fish then release more trophonts into the water, starting the cycle over.

So if you have ich in your tank, you have to assume the hard surfaces have trophonts, and that they will release free swimmers every day for 75 days. If you have fish in that water, they will be infected. Copper or chloroquine phosphate kills the parasite in the fish. It does not kill the trophonts. So, if you let the fish go for 30 days in copper, it has killed the parasite in the fish itself but has not done anything to the trophonts at all. I am unclear if the trophonts can be on the skin of the fish, but I don't think so. However, I think 30 days in copper is going to start running into issues with fish health.
This is why the 14 days copper, followed by transferring the fish and sterilizing the QT tank is suggested: the fish will be cured of any ich they might have had, the QT tank is sterilized, removing the trophonts, then you have 14-28 days to treat the fish in non-copper water with other meds for parasites and diseases, without them having to be in copper, and without any chance of encrusted trophonts releasing more free-swimming ich parasites.

Tank Transfer method does the same but requires a tank swap every (IIRC) 72 hours, several times.

--Gray

Sorry, when I was saying TTM, I actually just meant transferring into a sterile tank after 14 days, not the actual TTM.

Regarding sterilization of the tank and all its components ie. HOB filter, powerhead, PVC elbows etc., can this be done quickly on a 20g tank? Is bleach the best bet? What would be the process involved in sterilization and then ensuring all bleach is evaporated or gone before reintroducing fresh SW and the fish?

I'm wondering if this can all be done in a couple hours while the fish are housed in some bucket's with air stones and heaters.

 

[JCTReefer]

Ok, I'll try one more time.
I am not describing TTM.
I am going over the info that was given in this thread.

And that is that if you have hard surfaces that the trophonts can attach to (including the tank walls), then you need that tank to be fishless for 75 days to guarantee that those trophonts cannot re-infect fish.
I don't know how running it with fish and copper for 75 days would work, I have to assume it would not be good for the fish.

Again, someone corrects me if I am wrong but I believe this is the lifecycle: ich trophonts (I think these are like cysts) burst, releasing the free-swimming stage into the water column. This can happen any time from the time the trophont is formed and latches onto something hard, up to 75 days later. The free swimmers look for fish, and attach to them, causing ich (I'm unsure if there is a 3rd form, that the free-swimmers become, inside the fish). After some time those infected fish then release more trophonts into the water, starting the cycle over.

So if you have ich in your tank, you have to assume the hard surfaces have trophonts, and that they will release free swimmers every day for 75 days. If you have fish in that water, they will be infected. Copper or chloroquine phosphate kills the parasite in the fish. It does not kill the trophonts. So, if you let the fish go for 30 days in copper, it has killed the parasite in the fish itself but has not done anything to the trophonts at all. I am unclear if the trophonts can be on the skin of the fish, but I don't think so. However, I think 30 days in copper is going to start running into issues with fish health.
This is why the 14 days copper, followed by transferring the fish and sterilizing the QT tank is suggested: the fish will be cured of any ich they might have had, the QT tank is sterilized, removing the trophonts, then you have 14-28 days to treat the fish in non-copper water with other meds for parasites and diseases, without them having to be in copper, and without any chance of encrusted trophonts releasing more free-swimming ich parasites.

Tank Transfer method does the same but requires a tank swap every (IIRC) 72 hours, several times.

--Gray

I agree
Parasites can only remain on fish for 7 days and the presence of therapeutic copper or chloroquine protects the fish from reinfection. That is why the whole transfer to a sterile quarantine works. The life cycle of ich and velvet are well understood. Copper only kills in the free swimming stages. And doesn’t do much in the other stages. Most prefer to have two quarantine tanks so that you can easily transfer the fish at the 14 day mark. 14 days of therapeutic levels that is. You are leaving the parasites that have dropped off of the fish behind in the first QT setup. I don't know why anyone would treat copper the full 30 days. Copper is a harsh poison. Some fish will develop bacterial infections approaching the 20-30 day mark.
I also don't know why anyone would treat their display tank with copper. I would certainly not treat a display for 76 days!! If you're fish are infected, remove them from the tank and treat in quarantine. Let the display go fallow for 76 days and be done with it. Whether an individual wants to do the full 30 day in copper and then remove the med or transfer to another sterile tank at the 2 week mark is up to them. I prefer the ladder. Quarantine setups are cheap so I'm not sure why anyone would ever treat their display. If it’s a huge display and there’s multiple fish to be caught, I can definitely understand someone not going through the trouble. What I’ve always done in large displays is drain the tank until there’s only a few inches of water. Makes catching them super easy. Then simply pump the water back in. The thing is, you have to have enough containers to hold The water volume.
Here’s a chart for reference on for treating fish with copper and chloroquine if you haven’t discovered it. It’s a useful reference guide. Not set in stone but useful.

Fish and Treatment Guidelines (with chart)

Fish and Treatment Guidelines (with chart) The following chart is a quick reference guide on what QT protocol should be used according to which type of fish you are running through QT. It will give you an idea of which methods are generally safest with certain species but is not meant to be...

www.reef2reef.com

 

[JCTReefer]

Sorry, when I was saying TTM, I actually just meant transferring into a sterile tank after 14 days, not the actual TTM.

Regarding sterilization of the tank and all its components ie. HOB filter, powerhead, PVC elbows etc., can this be done quickly on a 20g tank? Is bleach the best bet? What would be the process involved in sterilization and then ensuring all bleach is evaporated or gone before reintroducing fresh SW and the fish?

I'm wondering if this can all be done in a couple hours while the fish are housed in some bucket's with air stones and heaters.

I just dump some bleach in the quarantine with freshwater, leave pumps, powerheads on, let it circulate for a while. Leave the heater in there also. Rinse out with fresh water. Let dry. You can even use a fan to speed things up. Or use a blow dryer.
I do this after every batch of fish. Then wipe it out with vinegar and alcohol. When bleach dries it turn to salt basically. If there is any bleach smell you know there’s some residual. Having said that, some people have actually dosed bleach into their tank!!! Now that’s a little crazy. Back in the day people would frequently bleach coral skeletons. Just make sure every thing is dried out well and there’s no smell. You don’t want a single drop of liquid being left in the tank or equipment. You can use just vinegar instead of bleach if you prefer. Then the vinegar would be the cleaning part, and the drying would be the sterilization part.

 

[blackstallion]

I just dump some bleach in the quarantine with freshwater, leave pumps, powerheads on, let it circulate for a while. Leave the heater in there also. Rinse out with fresh water. Let dry. You can even use a fan to speed things up. Or use a blow dryer.
I do this after every batch of fish. Then wipe it out with vinegar and alcohol. When bleach dries it turn to salt basically. If there is any bleach smell you know there’s some residual. Having said that, some people have actually dosed bleach into their tank!!! Now that’s a little crazy. Back in the day people would frequently bleach coral skeletons. Just make sure every thing is dried out well and there’s no smell. You don’t want a single drop of liquid being left in the tank or equipment. You can use just vinegar instead of bleach if you prefer. Then the vinegar would be the cleaning part, and the drying would be the sterilization part.

This is very helpful. Mind elaborating on the below?

What ratio of bleach to FW would you recommend? And the FW can just be tap I assume, not RO/DI?

How long would you typically let it circulate, 30 minutes? 1 hour?

I assume leave the HOB filter going as well, but obviously any bio media or filter and sponges should be taken out and throw away?

Should the Seachem Ammonia Badge be left in there with the bleach? Not sure if there is another way to sanitize it seperatly to safely put back into the sterile tank.

Do you think this can all be completed in a couple hours time? I will have a fish waiting patiently in a bucket with air running and possibly heater, so I'm assuming they will be fine in there until sterilization is completed.

 

[K7BMG]

Bleach will kill the badge 100%.

It does mot take long for the bleach to do its job.
Honestly 30 minutes should be more than enough to sterilize everything.
Its not lime your curing and cleaning rock that is porus.

IMO
The real time consuming part is ridding the tank and equipment of the bleach. It has to dry completely 100%.
Not rinsed and wiped down with rags or paper towels.
If you can smell it at all its not gone.

 

[JCTReefer]

This is very helpful. Mind elaborating on the below?

What ratio of bleach to FW would you recommend? And the FW can just be tap I assume, not RO/DI?

How long would you typically let it circulate, 30 minutes? 1 hour?

I assume leave the HOB filter going as well, but obviously any bio media or filter and sponges should be taken out and throw away?

Should the Seachem Ammonia Badge be left in there with the bleach? Not sure if there is another way to sanitize it seperatly to safely put back into the sterile tank.

Do you think this cant all be completed in a couple hours time? I will have a fish waiting patiently in a bucket with air running and possibly heater, so I'm assuming they will be fine in there until sterilization is completed.

Yes, toss the bio filter. You’ll need another bio filter thats brand new and has been seeded with bacteria. I wouldn’t put the badge in bleach. That would ruin it likely.
So far as the ratio of bleach to water. I don’t even measure. I’d guess I use about a 1/2 cup per 10 gallons. I figured you can’t really use to much. It’s going to be washed out anyways. And then fresh “tap water is fine” to let circulate through the pumps and filter after you’ve rinsed all the bleach out of the tank. Just let it circulate again for a few minutes. I do this in a bathtub. I’ll also use the removable shower head spray nozzle to spray off the equipment. After the tap water rinse I’ll dry everything thoroughly. The tank is wiped dry with paper towels. Then I’ll wipe it down with vinegar. Dry that with paper towels . Then rubbing alcohol. I take apart powerheads and the filter parts and Let them dry. You could use a compressor or blow dryer to speed up the process. I’m usually not in a rush to dry everything because I have a second Sterile quarantine that’s identical to the first. Already set up, cycled and ready to go. This makes things a lot easier then trying to rush and get the same quarantine sterilized, dried, and set up again. I’d be paranoid about a single drop of water that was missed. I’ve never tried the single quarantine method of pulling the fish out, then sterilizing and putting them back in. In the beginning of this thread several people ask hotrocks what he thought about on doing things this way. I’m trying to remember what he said. Here’s a helpful link on sterilization also.

Video - How to sterilize a Quarantine Tank

Sterilizing Quarantine Equipment After running a batch of fish through quarantine (QT), whether it was a successful QT or not, it’s a good practice to then sterilize the equipment before getting your next group of fish. The reason being, especially if your QT was unsuccessful, that there can be...

www.reef2reef.com

 

[blackstallion]

I just dump some bleach in the quarantine with freshwater, leave pumps, powerheads on, let it circulate for a while. Leave the heater in there also. Rinse out with fresh water. Let dry. You can even use a fan to speed things up. Or use a blow dryer.
I do this after every batch of fish. Then wipe it out with vinegar and alcohol. When bleach dries it turn to salt basically. If there is any bleach smell you know there’s some residual. Having said that, some people have actually dosed bleach into their tank!!! Now that’s a little crazy. Back in the day people would frequently bleach coral skeletons. Just make sure every thing is dried out well and there’s no smell. You don’t want a single drop of liquid being left in the tank or equipment. You can use just vinegar instead of bleach if you prefer. Then the vinegar would be the cleaning part, and the drying would be the sterilization part.

When you say the drying would be sterilization, is this because any parasites would die in the drying stage from lack of water droplets to live in? And why wouldn't the fresh water and vinegar sterilize the parasites, they can survive through that?

 

[blackstallion]

Bleach will kill the badge 100%.

It does mot take long for the bleach to do its job.
Honestly 30 minutes should be more than enough to sterilize everything.
Its not lime your curing and cleaning rock that is porus.

IMO
The real time consuming part is ridding the tank and equipment of the bleach. It has to dry completely 100%.
Not rinsed and wiped down with rags or paper towels.
If you can smell it at all its not gone.

What is the reason for needing it 100% dry. If there was 1 drop in the heater, how does this jeapordize the process?

 

[K7BMG]

Bleach IE chlorine is the most deadly chemical you can put into your tank.
Its sole purpose it to kill bacteria and subsequently everything.

This is why we use RO/DI water with carbon and resins.
To make sure we compleatly remove it from the water sources and guarantee its 100% gone.

Clorine bleach will evaporate and gas off and leaves nothing behind, when it dries compleatly.

 

[JCTReefer]

What is the reason for needing it 100% dry. If there was 1 drop in the heater, how does this jeapordize the process?

Abstract
The effect of chlorine (12, 60, and 120 ppm available chlorine concentrations), benzalkonium chloride (100 ppm), freshwater, heat (40 °C), and drying on the hatching ability of Heterobothrium okamotoi eggs and Cryptocaryon irritans cysts was examined. The eggs and cysts at an early stage (1–16 h after spawning or leaving the host for H. okamotoi and C. irritans, respectively) and at a late stage (72–87 h) were exposed to each treatment for 1 or 24 h. Hatching of H. okamotoi eggs and C. irritans cysts was completely suppressed at both early and late stages when they were exposed to heat for 1 h. Exposure to chlorine at a concentration of more than 60 ppm available chlorine or to drying for 24 h was also effective in preventing hatching completely. However, freshwater had limited effect on preventing hatching of both parasites. Although benzalkonium chloride treatment for 1 h prevented hatching of C. irritans cysts completely, it was not effective against H. okamotoi eggs. One-hour treatments with chlorine (2.4 and 12 ppm) or benzalkonium chloride (100 ppm),or heat (40 °C) killed hatched H. okamotoi oncomiracidia and C. irritans theronts. These methods would be useful to prevent the horizontal infection with these parasites from used equipment, tanks, and wastewater in fish-rearing facilities.