My experience with too much red lighting

[Brew12]

Most of this information is contained in a different thread on red lighting, but I felt it was worth posting separately since that thread was very technical and this was a minor part of it.

Disclaimer: I only suspect too much red lighting to have been my main problem, I have no scientific proof, only anecdotal evidence.

Initial lighting: 2 Mitras LX7206's with all lighting channels set at 80%. Suplemental T5's with 2 coral+ and 2 blue+ bulbs.

I love Monti Caps, but have only had one that grew well. It was this red/orange one. In hindsight, I believe the reason it has grown so well is that it reflects red light.

The 2 that caused me the most frustration were the green and purple ones. Notice how in these old (and poor quality) photos how they grown down and underneath ledges.

With some help from some lighting/coral guru's I decided to cut back on my red lighting. My new settings are 80% on blue/purple channels, 40% on white channels (white channels do have substantial reds) and 60% on the red and green channels.

After only a few weeks at these settings, the growth patters on my monti's changed.

This is still a slow grower, but you can see new growth on the front edge starting to grow out.

This one started growing much faster and you can see it is finally growing up and away from the rock.

I have also had poor polyp extension on my SPS's but it is better in the shaded areas. This coral shows it fairly clearly. It will take more time before I know if my lighting changes improve this, but I feel like it will.

 

[Crabs McJones]

Awesome to see I know with my setup the Kessil AP700 gives you the ability to add in red and green along with the preset colors, needless to say I leave both of those slider bars at 0% lol

 

[Brew12]

Awesome to see I know with my setup the Kessil AP700 gives you the ability to add in red and green along with the preset colors, needless to say I leave both of those slider bars at 0% lol

I prefer the much "whiter" look instead of the strong blues many reefers prefer. Visually, my tank doesn't look much different than before but I am running lower PAR.

 

[Crabs McJones]

I prefer the much "whiter" look instead of the strong blues many reefers prefer. Visually, my tank doesn't look much different than before but I am running lower PAR.

Side question, have you noticed reduced algae with the change?

 

[Brew12]

Side question, have you noticed reduced algae with the change?

I haven't had an algae issue other than bryopsis in the 7 months this system has been up and running which is when I started using these lights.

 

[Dana Riddle]

Thank you for this - I love this sort of post!

Most of this information is contained in a different thread on red lighting, but I felt it was worth posting separately since that thread was very technical and this was a minor part of it.

Disclaimer: I only suspect too much red lighting to have been my main problem, I have no scientific proof, only anecdotal evidence.

Initial lighting: 2 Mitras LX7206's with all lighting channels set at 80%. Suplemental T5's with 2 coral+ and 2 blue+ bulbs.

I love Monti Caps, but have only had one that grew well. It was this red/orange one. In hindsight, I believe the reason it has grown so well is that it reflects red light.

The 2 that caused me the most frustration were the green and purple ones. Notice how in these old (and poor quality) photos how they grown down and underneath ledges.

With some help from some lighting/coral guru's I decided to cut back on my red lighting. My new settings are 80% on blue/purple channels, 40% on white channels (white channels do have substantial reds) and 60% on the red and green channels.

After only a few weeks at these settings, the growth patters on my monti's changed.

This is still a slow grower, but you can see new growth on the front edge starting to grow out.

This one started growing much faster and you can see it is finally growing up and away from the rock.

I have also had poor polyp extension on my SPS's but it is better in the shaded areas. This coral shows it fairly clearly. It will take more time before I know if my lighting changes improve this, but I feel like it will.

 

[John3]

Interesting. I think even 60% is very high for green and red channels. I think these channels are like 20% on the AB+ schedule. If you have seen a positive indication from your corals you may want to slowly take the red/green down further.

 

[madweazl]

Any idea what kind of PAR you were getting? The absence of polyp extension and the downward growth patterns could also be related to PAR which also got reduced a bit with your change.

 

[Brew12]

Interesting. I think even 60% is very high for green and red channels. I think these channels are like 20% on the AB+ schedule. If you have seen a positive indication from your corals you may want to slowly take the red/green down further.

Isn't the AB+ schedule for Radion lights?

Any idea what kind of PAR you were getting? The absence of polyp extension and the downward growth patterns could also be related to PAR which also got reduced a bit with your change.

I was running around 550 PAR. Down to around 400 PAR now at the main coral level.

 

[jda]

I would consider that this could be from the lower output. 550 PAR from a LED can harm a lot of coral - these are not like MH or T5 where 550 PAR would just make a lot of them thrive. The lowering of red might contribute, but there is probably in some combination also because of the lower output, IMO. 400 PAR from a LED is still a lot to most SPS.

The acropora are better litmus tests than montis since they are more sensitive. It would be interesting to see what happenes to them over time.

You can always test this by turning the reds up, but leaving the PAR at 400ish. Keep in mind that MH have a lot of red spectrum and it hurts nothing.

 

[Dana Riddle]

You can always test this by turning the reds up, but leaving the PAR at 400ish. Keep in mind that MH have a lot of red spectrum and it hurts nothing.

It's a free country, and you can do whatever you wish. Personally, I wouldn't increase the amount of red unless it was in an experimental tank, where an entire population is not at risk. The broad brush statement that red spectrum of MH lamps hurts nothing is interesting - where is the proof to back this up? Has chlorophyll content, zoox population densities, reflectance/absorption, etc. been analyzed? I'm open-minded, perhaps there is proof, but until it is presented, I'm skeptical.

 

[rockskimmerflow]

I would consider that this could be from the lower output. 550 PAR from a LED can harm a lot of coral - these are not like MH or T5 where 550 PAR would just make a lot of them thrive. The lowering of red might contribute, but there is probably in some combination also because of the lower output, IMO. 400 PAR from a LED is still a lot to most SPS.

The acropora are better litmus tests than montis since they are more sensitive. It would be interesting to see what happenes to them over time.

You can always test this by turning the reds up, but leaving the PAR at 400ish. Keep in mind that MH have a lot of red spectrum and it hurts nothing.

I can't speak to whether the red light is an issue in the OP's case, but I have to agree that especially for flat plating type coral like montipora capricornis 550 PAR is a ton and likely not helping. 400 PAR is probably the top of where I'd want to run any sort of capricornis. I do have a client with a pair of AP700 on a 240 gallon. I allowed him to manipulate the red/green sliders to his taste and if I recall we have about 80 percent right now on that channel. Total PAR is much lower with the mid tank running around 275 or so. His corals thrive including monti caps, so I can't say that I've noticed any issue with the red light additions.

I played with a pure blood red T5HO horticulture tube over a 12 inch deep growout for a bit. Didn't notice any negative impact in the slightest. After about 2 months I pulled it simply because the reflection of it on the water's surface didn't make for such a pleasurable top down viewing experience.

 

[Brew12]

I can't speak to whether the red light is an issue in the OP's case, but I have to agree that especially for flat plating type coral like montipora capricornis 550 PAR is a ton and likely not helping. 400 PAR is probably the top of where I'd want to run any sort of capricornis. I do have a client with a pair of AP700 on a 240 gallon. I allowed him to manipulate the red/green sliders to his taste and if I recall we have about 80 percent right now on that channel. Total PAR is much lower with the mid tank running around 275 or so. His corals thrive including monti caps, so I can't say that I've noticed any issue with the red light additions.

As I've stated, this is purely a subjective observation on my part. High PAR could be an issue. My Monti's were at around 450 PAR for the orange one, and 400 for the purple one due to height in the tank. The orange monti that did great was also getting the highest PAR.

I reduced my white lighting more than my reds for 2 reason. First is that I did decide to lower my total PAR level. The second part is that lowering the whites allowed me to reduce a much broader spectrum of red than my red only channel.

 

[Dana Riddle]

I played with a pure blood red T5HO horticulture tube over a 12 inch deep growout for a bit. Didn't notice any negative impact in the slightest. After about 2 months I pulled it simply because the reflection of it on the water's surface didn't make for such a pleasurable top down viewing experience.

Interesting. Wijgerde showed red light negatively affected Stylophora pistillata after 3 weeks exposure. See here:

http://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0092781

I observed bleaching in multiple corals (Pocillopora meandrina, Pocillopora damicornis, Porites sp., unidentified Hawaiian zoanthids) when irradiated with red light.

Kinzie and Jokiel observed negative effects of red light as well.

So, the questions beg to be asked - What differed in your tank and why were your corals unaffected? What brand lamp was this? Do you have any PAR numbers to share? This could be really interesting! Thanks.

 

[oreo54]

Not sure it ever "fair" to judge by extremes as to effects..
"Whole is greater than the sum of it parts" seems to apply often..

The broad brush statement that red spectrum of MH lamps hurts nothing is interesting

As to MH and tubes.. even high K and bluish.. there is a fair amount of red.. well needs to be defined what a "lot" is..
You may recognize this:

 

[jda]

The broad brush statement that red spectrum of MH lamps hurts nothing is interesting - where is the proof to back this up?

I would like any science and research in the aquarium hobby to take the same approach as every other true science and assume that nature is correct until proven otherwise. The large amount of red in the sun is the proof... until there are peer reviewed, encompassing testing and research. Until we do this, then I will still consider what we see with lighting as pseudo-science still.

If you want to argue that red light alone is a problem, then fine... but the OP is not talking about just illuminating with red light but rather as part of a fuller spectrum. Having an amount of red at least in the same proportion as sunlight is not an issue.

 

[rockskimmerflow]

Interesting. Wijgerde showed red light negatively affected Stylophora pistillata after 3 weeks exposure. See here:

http://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0092781

I observed bleaching in multiple corals (Pocillopora meandrina, Pocillopora damicornis, Porites sp., unidentified Hawaiian zoanthids) when irradiated with red light.

Kinzie and Jokiel observed negative effects of red light as well.

So, the questions beg to be asked - What differed in your tank and why were your corals unaffected? What brand lamp was this? Do you have any PAR numbers to share? This could be really interesting! Thanks.

I am aware of the research indications of red light's detrimental effects. In my case it was not pure red light or even dominantly red since the fixture housed 7 other aquarium type lamps, so that may be why I had no observed negative results.

There was a purple S. Pistillata in that tank that showed no issue when the red lamp was in use. I never did a PAR test on that tank. Fixture is an 8x54w Sunblaze. Other lamps were ATI 4x BP, 2x TA, 1x ABS. I replaced the red with a different copper colored Horticulture lamp that had a really interesting 400-420nm + 660-700nm spectral profile. That has been in place instead of the pure red for the last 5 months or so with good results as well.

Tank is 7'x3' with roughly 12 inch water depth with about 4 to 8 inch average water over the corals.

Will look at the brand on the red lamp when I have time to dig it out of whatever case of bulbs I stuck it into.

 

[A. grandis]

I would like any science and research in the aquarium hobby to take the same approach as every other true science and assume that nature is correct until proven otherwise. The large amount of red in the sun is the proof... until there are peer reviewed, encompassing testing and research. Until we do this, then I will still consider what we see with lighting as pseudo-science still.

If you want to argue that red light alone is a problem, then fine... but the OP is not talking about just illuminating with red light but rather as part of a fuller spectrum. Having an amount of red at least in the same proportion as sunlight is not an issue.

I agree with the nature approach and comparison of the MH to the sun, specially using 65K halide bulbs, like I used in the old days.
The diference here is the ability of controlling the LED to offer an unnatural excessive/ unbalanced red spectrum to the corals.
The MH, as we know, does offer a balanced red spectrum (read "limited") to the tank and it can't be considered an excess because of the relatively constant/unchanged/beneficial spectrum emitted, to resemble the sun, offering the other colors in a complete spectrum tray.
Simply what it is. Nothing to defend MHs and to go against LEDs IMO.
It's just the way the corals will receive and benefit from the light offered.

I think the facts are greater than any lost scientific proof.
With all the respect to anyone that loves numbers and data. I like them too!

 

[rockskimmerflow]

Will look at the brand on the red lamp when I have time to dig it out of whatever case of bulbs I stuck it into.

Update: Found the lamp and the sleeve it came in. It is an EYE Hortilux Powerveg 660. Hands down absolutely the most blood red T5 tube I've ever seen.

The lamp I changed it out for is their FS+UV. So not a pure 660nm and actinic, but definitely an interesting lamp with a richer more warm tone than any 6500k I've seen. Yet it still displays corals under it in a pleasing way.

I have also side by side compared the EYE hortilux 420nm and 460nm lamps. Would need a spectrometer to do any meaningful testing but my visual assessment puts them literally identical to ATI TA and BP lamps. The hortilux lamps just seemed a hair deeper purple/blue respectively as compared to the ATI actinic and blue plus. Long term remains to be seen. I started the pair of hortilux tubes at the same time as a pair of brand new ATI actinic and blue plus bulbs so in 4 or 5 months I'll swap them next to each other and take a close look to see if either has changed visibly relative to their cross brand counterpart since that will have been about a year of normal duty cycle on both pairs of lamps.

 

[taricha]

I've got a pocillopora coral in my tank that due to shading from rock of the sunlight that comes in through the back window, only the half of the colony close to the front glass gets sunlight, the back half only gets my weak mostly blue LEDs.

The sunlit half has now grown much faster, and is significantly taller then the back half. The sunlit half, however is brown and the back half has better fluorescence. That is as expected.
A while back the colony bleached - I let phosphate go to zero while nitrates were elevated, full recovery was made with dosing phosphate. Rather I should say part of the colony was bleached, I just went back and pulled up the pictures....

... it of course is the sunlit part that bleached, and there was no bleaching in the back half (far right in pic) that receives no sunlight, only much less light from blue heavy LED.