My fish keep dying

[Circulita17]

@Hugh Mann I forgot to mention the mollie was acting fine for the first several hours swimming around biting the live rock.

@mstoneman17 Hello, thank you for helping. I will try to acclimate them a little faster next time. I just need to figure out what is going on first. I used RO water. Yes I have live rock and live sand. when you say more bio filtration? do you mean live rock??

 

[Circulita17]

You said you were given the clownfish, how far did it travel and how was it shipped/transported to you? It could be that it was just too stressed from the travel if it wasn't packaged properly. Do you know where they got it from?

The fish traveled about 15 minutes from Petco to my house. He was in a little plastic baggie. I know petco is not the best place to get fishes from.

 

[Dolphins18]

@Hugh Mann I forgot to mention the mollie was acting fine for the first several hours swimming around biting the live rock.

@mstoneman17 Hello, thank you for helping. I will try to acclimate them a little faster next time. I just need to figure out what is going on first. I used RO water. Yes I have live rock and live sand. when you say more bio filtration? do you mean live rock??

Yea, based off what I have read I would go pick up a cheap clownfish, or a clown goby would be fine too, The mollies are going to be a very difficult way to tell if something is wrong as they dont often survive the transition in a healthy or an unhealthy tank.
As long as you have at least 1lb rock per gallon that is enough. I dont think its a filtration or water quality issue, I may be wrong of course, but It seems more like the mollies just wanted to stay in freshwater

 

[HuduVudu]

@HuduVudu How can I tell if there is enough gas exchange?? I can see small bubbles. thank you

Your tank should be turning over at least 30 times in an hour. With the size of tank that you have that should be easy to accomplish. Your other option is to use a good skimmer. I had to use a HOB skimmer on my tank because high flow wasn't an option, but my tank was oxygen starved. That HOB you have is not going to cut it for gas exchange. Get good powerheads that should help a lot. Also figure out your gas exchange in your room or house. If you are in a little bedroom that can be a problem. Every house is different on how it deals with, or doesn't, air recirculation. Newer houses are better older not so much. Also if you are in a newer house and you say for instance keep your door closed all of the time, then you probably aren't getting good gas exchange even if the house itself has proper ventilation.

Another pet peeve I have is when the LFSs sell people something they call "live" rock. This is not live rock and it is a way for them to inflate the price to get more money out of you. This practice is totally unscrupulous, and I would heavily consider my partronage of a business that does kind of thing. The rock you have is not live, and this is a serious issue IMO. You need some live rock for your tank. It is hard to find locally usually, even in a big city. Best to go online to get it. Shipping sucks because of the cost but in the long run it is totally a good investment. Two places to start for live rock are Live Rock and Reef and Tampa Bay Saltwater. You will need to read up on how to properly deal with live rock, but it is a skill that will be neccessary if you continue in this hobby.

Hopefully this can help.

 

[JAC-]

You are highly welcome. I just hope we can help you before the stress claims you.

In my experience and chemistry knowledge one quick way to get a rough idea if you have enough oxygen would be your KH and your PH levels.

It's more of an accurate representation of your CO2 level, but often high KH and low PH are a strong sign of too little gas exchange.

The parameters I saw are all good, but I am curious on the ammonia, I actually have never seen an API ammonia test read 0 on a reef tank. Could be having test kit issues too. I believe I remember you saying that you had your LFS double check them for you though.

I check my KH and PH too to be safe, both could be problematic, however it seems you have a grasp of the basics.

Try not to get discouraged, I was in your shoes not long ago. I've been doing FW for decades, and the reef has been a learning experience and at times a struggle. I've had my losses and fought my battles and I learn more each day. It is stressful at times, but with every small victory you get closer to success. I'm glad I haven't given up yet, and I hope you find the same.

 

[Hugh Mann]

By the sounds of it, I am leaning towards gas exchange. What leads me there is the fish breathing heavy and the mollies gasping at the surface. I'd recommend putting the powerhead back in, or at the very least running an air pump. 10 gallons can get depleted pretty quick. Would also explain why they were fine for the first few hours.

Stray voltage is simply speaking, electricity leaking out of some device or other. Typically a heater. If it is strong enough you can feel it when you stick your hand in the water, it feels like touching a 9v battery to your tongue. It can also be weak enough or intermittent that you can't always detect it manually, but still enough to stress or even kill fish. A multimeter can be used to test for it, and a grounding probe can be used to prevent it.

On a side note about the mollies, everyone will tell you a different way to acclimate them, but personally I go about 2-3 hours via Drip. My last batch of 7, only 1 died and the rest are still going strong months later.

 

[Circulita17]

@mstoneman17 Hopefully soon I can add more fishes, I just want to figure out anything I can do before attempting again. I don't want to kill another fish. I feel so bad.

@HuduVudu I have a hydor koralia 240 powerhead. Should I aim it towards the surface or downward? Do you think it will be enough or should I consider buying another powerhead?? I also have a acrylic cover above the tank, should I remove that? Or do you think I should add holes to provide better air flow? The reason I put that cover is because I don't want a fish to jump out or my computer get wet as the tank is right next to my desktop. Which brand of skimmer do you recommend? The aquarium is actually in my computer room, which is small and probably doesn't have good ventilation as this is an old house. Maybe I can try leaving the fan on the low setting and see if that helps? More than likely this room has poor ventilation, the air vent was closed to this room I checked after reading your comment.

Dang, that blows. I got ripped off with the rock. Can I still use it? I know some people use dry rock which I am going to assume that's what I have in my tank. I was going to order the rock from tampa bay saltwater but they said it was going to take weeks because of all the tropical storms. I should have been patient. I know this is my fault.

@JAC- I am pretty close but I am stubborn I wont stop until I figure this out. I really want to grow coral. but later on once the tank has been established for a while and I can actually keep fish ALIVE! I just checked my pH since you mention it and it looks around 7.8ish even probably lower around 7.6. With my current FW tank I had pH issues, a lot of fluctuations, so I had to add CC to the canister to maintain a stable pH. I know RO water has a low pH and I thought the aragonite had some type of buffer. Is that a good pH? I can not test the kh at the moment since I dont have that testing kit. I can try and see if Petsmart or Petco have a testing kit tomorrow for that parameter.

So this is what I did, I took pictures of the colors the days I tested the parameters while the tank cycled. On the first day, the color was a cloudy/musky (I dont know how to explain) yellow, so I am assuming it was 0 since the aquarium nitrites and nitrates were 0 and the tank had just been started. When I added bio spira and ammonia and I waited a few days to test and the ammonia was a cloudy green, so I knew I had some ammonia. Now that the aquarium is cycled I am getting the same yellow cloudy color, along with blue 0ppm nitrites, and a tint of orange 15ppm on the nitrates. So basically I am using the picture to see if I am at zero. I know this testing kit is no good, but I had it already. Honestly I am still learning a ton, and I am so happy there are individuals who are willing to help me along the way. I am going to purchase the salifert testing kit, which I heard it is good. What other parameters should I be testing at the moment?

@Hugh Mann I will definitely put the powerhead back in, do you think I should add another powerhead ? I was hoping that the filter along with the powerhead would have sufficed, if not I don't mind buying another one. Silly question, should I leave a space between the filter output (meaning should I hear the water) or should I fill it all the way so you don't hear the water splash? Did I explain myself correctly? I'm sorry, thank you for helping me

 

[HuduVudu]

I have a hydor koralia 240 powerhead. Should I aim it towards the surface or downward?

Toward the surface and yes remove the acrylic top. Try to get good agitation without any splash. You are brave putting it next to your computer.

Do you think it will be enough or should I consider buying another powerhead??

I think your money would be better spent getting rid of the HOB and getting a HOB skimmer intstead. With the skimmer you will elminate the need for another power head.

Can I still use it? I know some people use dry rock which I am going to assume that's what I have in my tank.

Yes, you can use it and you are correct to assume that it is just dry rock. Make your next "live" purchase the rock. You will thank me later for it.

The reason I put that cover is because I don't want a fish to jump out ...

Use mesh for this. As to the other issues reduce/remove splash. You don't want any splash anyway because of salt creep. If you position your power head correctly and you are using a HOB skimmer this is very much minimized.

Which brand of skimmer do you recommend?

A known brand like Reef Octo. I don't really have any recomendations because there aren't many brands and you may have space/size constraints. FWIW I am using a Reef Octo that is at the end of it's life at 4 years.

Maybe I can try leaving the fan on the low setting and see if that helps? More than likely this room has poor ventilation, the air vent was closed to this room I checked after reading your comment.

Just moving around stale air isn't going to help. Open the vent, open the door and if you can open the window in the room (assuming it has one) daily if you can. There are other things to do like pulling a line into your skimmer input from the outside. Just know that this is not something to be disregarded or low on the list of priorities, it is very important. Your PH is low because of it, along with your oxygen. This is going to have a serious impact on your long term sucess if you don't deal with it.

Please for the love of gawd stop going to PetSmart or PetCo. These are really not places that will help you find success. Go to BulkReefSupply.com to get stuff that you need. On another comment you mentioned getting tests. Buy Salifert or Hanna or Red Sea. Do not buy others. Too many times I have seen new reefers using garbage tests and they get garbage numbers and then make garbage decisions. Spend the money this is not something you want to skimp on.

Hope you are having fun with the fire hose in your mouth

 

[JAC-]

Good call on the ammonia test, I agree with your findings of 0 then. I had a very bad kit from api and it made me switch to all red sea, but I used api for many years before that and as long as you are aware they may be off and account for it I think you will be fine with them. Also anyone's kits could be off, so it comes down to what works for you.

7.6 would be considered low and I would definitely suspect that you are having gas exchange issues with that. 7.8 is pretty low too, but I'd have to know the KH to truly comment. If you were ph 7.6-7.8 and your KH was 9.5DKH then I would be quite sure, but if your KH is 6 then your CO2 level is probably ok. Although that would be unhealthy for invertebrates and most salt fish.

Removing the solid cover and replacing it with a screen would likely show you a dramatic increase in gas exchange. I believe it is rare to have a salt tank covered in a solid material.

I'd suggest removing the top, adding your powerhead back and checking the PH 30 minutes later. If you see a notable increase, you likely have your culprit.

If you can get a skimmer, that should just about solve any gas exchange issues at least for where you are now. That said if you're relying on one piece of equipment to solve such an important problem, when it fails you will be facing the same problem again, but you'll likely have even more fish that you may loose. A combination of solutions is best.

You are very correct about RO water having a low ph it is topically about 4 I believe. However as you seem to know, it has no buffer capability and changes ph rapidly when it comes into contact with any alkaline materials. But just as these buffers raise PH, they can quickly deplete too. Magnesium actually plays an important role in stabilizing that and allowing carbonate to be produced and slowing that down.

When you add your salt mix to the RO water that should also include other elements to address those needs.

I assume you only add RO water directly to the tank to replace any evaporation correct?

I think KH is your missing test, calcium and magnesium would be good to get used to also, you'll need them both for coral.

For what it's worth I've had no issues with coral or invertebrates, but the fish gave me a good bit of trouble too.

 

[HuduVudu]

You are very correct about RO water having a low ph it is topically about 4 I believe.

It is 7 ... ph neutral.

 

[JAC-]

					It is 7 ... ph neutral. Correct, in open air. I was thinking about carbonic acid. Thanks for the reminder HuduVudu.

 

[calthrone]

Are you mixing your own water? Or are you buying the water from your LFS?

 

[afishbestservedcold]

I think there is a lot of good information here from people but not a lot of specific advice besides take of the lid and stop going to Petco, both of which you definitely should do!

Since you have nothing in the tank and it seems like you are pretty patient, I would suggest:

1. find an LFS with a good saltwater selection and get a good sized ball of chaeto/macros from them (they'll definitely have some in their refugium). Put this in a mesh bag and float in in your tank for about a week, this will suck the nitrates out and hopefully whatever other mystery toxin is lurking in there and help cycle the tank generally.

2. keep the powerhead going. I haven't used the koralia, maybe its too much flow? either way, I think you should keep it running until you have livestock in the tank. you might look into a powerhead with adjustable flow or the hydor controller

3. It doesn't look like you have an inverts based on the pic. After a week/few days with the macroalgae bag, I'd suggest you add some copepods, snails (trochus/astrea/ceriths) and 1-2 cheap reef-safe hermits (electric blues are ~4 bucks at my LFS) to test the water .

4. give it another week, maybe add another invert or two, and a week or two more and try another fish?

Hope that sounds doable, people please chime in!

a couple questions:

how many lbs of rock do you have? maybe pick up some real live rock from LFS at step 1

any inverts?

What is your filter media?

What light are you using?

 

[supernanoguy]

@Hugh Mann I dont mind answering questions as long as we can figure out what I am doing wrong or what is wrong with my aquarium. I started the cycle on September 25 and it was completely cycled by October 8, I used live rock from a LFS and live aragonite sand. I also used Bio-spira with Dr TIms ammonia. I use the API testing kit and I took pictures of the parameters until the cycle was complete. At the moment ammonia is 0, nitrite is 0, and nitrate is about 15ish. I have a digital thermometer which is reading 77. 7 and a thermometer that is reading the exact same temp. My heater is set at 78. The salinity is measured with a refractometer and I calibrate before each use, the salinity is 1.025. I have a power head but I removed it because the mollies were being blown everywhere. So I am just using a HOB fluval 70. I can see little bubbles inside the aquarium. I've always wondered if it is adequate filtration for the tank, I mean with my freshwater tank there is a lot of surface agitation and I don't see the same results in my saltwater. I've never heard of stray voltage, like check to see if there is faulty equipment? How would I check for stray voltage?? Stress yes, I noticed some stress signs from all three fishes. the clown was just swimming at the bottom breathing fast and hard, he was being pushed by the filter. Now the mollies, the one that died first was just constantly near the top breathing hard and heavy. The second one died 23 hours later and he was at the bottom and near the top breathing hard and heavy. They didn't show any signs of disease. I dont know why but I keep thinking there is something in the water column. I am running carbon at the moment just in case there is something. Thank you for helping.

@HB AL Yes I tested with a calibrated refractometer. I am using a fluval 70. Thank you for helping.

@Cell No I didn't quarantine the fish, because it was my first fish and I would have been able to dose any medication if needed. Especially since it is a FOWLR. Thank you.

@HuduVudu How can I tell if there is enough gas exchange?? I can see small bubbles. thank you

@Twoddler yes, I acclimated the mollies for 6 hours until the parameters were the same. Is that too long?? I read and watched videos, some people just throw the mollies in the tank just temp acclimate them, other acclimate them for hours, and some days. Thank you

@Alaeriel The mollies were FW. People acclimate them differently some said just throw the fish in there and some acclimated them. I chose to acclimate them over the course of a few hours. I didn't feel comfortable just tossing them in the tank. Thank you

Thank you all for helping

Hey I’m not sure if this was mentioned but by the looks of it you may have some kind of chemical being leached from something. Have You cleaned any equipment with soaps or chemicals? fish Death that fast is def signs of something in the water. Tank also looks like It needs more surface agitation. oxygen could be the answer.

 

[Circulita17]

@HuduVudu Alrighty then, I removed the acrylic top and exposed the surface and placed the powerhead. The reason I placed it by my computer is so I can look at it while I work. I can always move it somewhere else if needed. I started looking at protein skimmers, they are pricey but definitely on my to get list. I am thinking of adding live rock on top of this dry rock. I will definitely buy mesh for the top so I wont have any fish jumping out. My vent is open and door will stay open 24/7. The computer room is the last rooms in the house and it does have a window. Hopefully this will work. I will stop going to those stores for my tanks. I am definitely getting the red sea testing kits. Thank you.

@JAC- I am going to order red sea testing kit from BRS. So what is a normal range for kh and ph? I want to add coral in the future. Pretty silly of me to put an acrylic top. I rechecked the ph and it was still the same color probably a little darker but not much 7.8, I left it running over night. What other factor can cause my pH to be low? Yes, I started looking into skimmers. Hopefully get one soon. Yes, I use RO water for top offs, the water I started with I bought from the LFS (3 hours away) not petco or petsmart. I checked the salinity which was 1.025, but I started mixing mine now since I wont be making that long drive just for water. I don't know if that is a big no-no buying pre-mixed water. Maybe I should start with invertebrates but I am scared since I don't have any algae growing. I don't want to starve them. Thank you

@calthrone when I first started the tank, I bought pre-mixed water from the LFS. Is that bad? I started making my own water I buy RO water and I used instant ocean sea salt. Thank you

@afishbestservedcold I have been trying to stay patient. The nearest LFS is three hours from me. Can I use carbon instead (it is running as we speak)? I also have chemi blue and purigen on hand. Or is chaeto/macros better?

I will order the invertebrates online. What can I feed them when I add them? my tank has not produce any algae. I don't want to starve them.

I have 10 lbs of rock and 10 lbs of live aragonite. I can add some live rock on top of the dry rock I have. No inverts at the moment, I stopped trying after my third kill. I dont want to kill more fishes. I want to see what else I can do before attempting once again. The only thing running at the moment is carbon. The lighting is an 160WE kessil. Thank you for helping.

ask any question and I will answer. Thank you for helping

@supernanoguy This was my first thought but I am unsure. I painted the back of the aquarium and when I did I made sure to cover the top so I wont get no paint inside. I dont know if some still managed to get inside. No, I do not use chemicals, soaps, or bleach just regular tap water and a clean napkin. I make sure to wash my hands before reaching in the tank. Also I rinsed off the rock with salt water when I got it from the LFS, and to be on the save side since I did use some tap water to rinse of the tank and other equipment, I dosed prime. Thank you so much

 

[JAC-]

I'm sure there are lots of opinions on these levels, but my opinion is;

When you start doing coral, you'll want your

KH between 8 and 11 DKH
PH between 8.0 and 8.3
Calcium between 400 and 460 ppm
Magnesium between 1300 and 1400 ppm
Nitrate between 3 and 10 ppm
Phosphate between .01 and .1 ppm

Of course, the types of coral matter a bit here too.

I run on the high side of all those parameters but I think you will be fine anywhere within them as long as you maintain them stabilized. Stability is what is really important.

Not having anything consuming them they should be easy to maintain, but you will need them to effectively grow coraline algae. That also takes time. When things start consuming those elements, you will likely see rapid changes.

I expect you will have plenty of algae soon. Light and phosphate ate probably your limiting factors. I recommend doing research on diatoms soon as you will likely be facing them soon and you won't want to overreact to them. After they die off, other algaes will show up.

Much of the cleanup crew will eat fish food if you wanted to supplement with that until you grow algae.

A few hermits would be the next thing I would add.

PH is representative of many things, but it is a measurement of the hydrogen ions in a solution. Form there electrons move off the hydrogen and do lots of chemistry things that there is no point getting into rite now and isn't really important to what your problem is.

I'd suggest that your goal shouldn't be to increase PH for the sake of increasing it, but to create the environment where it is naturally high. When this is achieved, carbonic acid (from CO2 and hydrogen) is the main thing that effects your PH and your PH - KH relationship will give you a good idea of how much CO2 you have in your system.

This is why I suspect you have a gas exchange issue or low KH. If KH is low, elevating should result in a higher PH. If not then I'd say you either have a gas exchange issue, highly dirty tank, or possibly a chemical present that is driving down PH.

By all means have activated carbon in the system, this will help you if you do have a bad chemical in the tank.

Buying premixed water just means you have no control over it, it can be fine and it could be poison to your tank. If you make it, you know what is in it. That's better, but I like to think that the LFS's making the water care enough about there customers and the hobby to do their diligence when making the water.
That said I mix my own water and would recommend you do the same.

 

[JAC-]

After saying all that. The likely things that would be bringing your PH down are low KH and/or high CO2.

Don't knock yourself for the cover, this is all about learning and that's what you are doing.

I'm a big fan of the redsea KH, magnesium, and calcium test kits.

Could someone check your KH for you?

 

[calthrone]

Yeah I used to purchase premixed saltwater from my LFS, I used dry rock however, and I had very similar issues you did most of my fish I would put into the tank would die within 2 days or less. I then Switched to mixing my own salt (with my own RO filter which is actually a hardware store bought drinking water filter and it works great) used the same rock from my old tank into my new tank and I haven't had that problem since. If all else fails I would say try and buy a decent RO filter and mix your own water. Yeah as mentioned before you don't know how your LFS mixes their water and you don't know how often they change out their filters they could be mixing water with chlorine in it for all we know. That's just my personal experience however but like I said if all else fails that could be it.

 

[supernanoguy]

I’m leaning towards gases from the paint getting into the water since it’s in such close proximity. I would do a big water change before putting any animals in again.

 

[uninformed]

PH is representative of many things, but it is a measurement of the hydrogen ions in a solution. Form there electrons move off the hydrogen and do lots of chemistry things that there is no point getting into rite now and isn't really important to what your problem is.

Sir, there are no electrons in a hydrogen ion—AKA proton.