My fish keep dying

[JAC-]

Sir, there are no electrons in a hydrogen ion—AKA proton.

I believe my type-o may have lead to some confusion there. I had intended to say "from there" not form there, but that is not well worded regardless as I wasn't intending to even form a relationship between those two sentences.

Feel free to call me out without making a new account friends. I perfer to be corrected when I am wrong.

I am still learning myself.

@uninformed (I am not intending any insult there) You seem to have a pretty good grasp on chemistry. Do you think my theory or any of my points are incorrect?

 

[Circulita17]

@JAC- So I was messing with the air circulation in the room and I managed to increase the pH to 8.0. I will continue to monitor for fluctuations. I don't plan on messing with the pH using chemicals, I want a stable pH not one that fluctuates. I just put the order in for the redsea test kit, hopefully I get it soon. I started researching diatoms a few days ago since I haven't experienced them yet, especially since the tank is cycled. I turned the lights on about a week ago, so that could have been the issue. Can the rock be lowering the pH? I was told that it was live rock but I guess it is dry rock. I assumed it was live or seeded because it was in a tub with filtration and light, but as you can see from the picture it looks like dry rock. I didn't even cure the rock. I don't know anyone who has a saltwater tank. The only thing I can do at the moment is wait for the testing kit. I've been making my own water now, for water changes.

@calthrone I didn't even cure the rock I bought. The lady from the LFS told me it was live and I assumed it was and I placed it in the tank, I just rinsed it off with saltwater. I was going to tear down the tank, wash everything, and start all over, but I decided to come here and see if you guys can help me before I restart.

 

[Circulita17]

@supernanoguy I did a 50% water change three days ago prior adding fishes. Do you think I should perform another one? Will it be safe? I don't want to start a mini cycle. Thanks

 

[ScubaFish802]

@Hugh Mann I dont mind answering questions as long as we can figure out what I am doing wrong or what is wrong with my aquarium. I started the cycle on September 25 and it was completely cycled by October 8, I used live rock from a LFS and live aragonite sand. I also used Bio-spira with Dr TIms ammonia. I use the API testing kit and I took pictures of the parameters until the cycle was complete. At the moment ammonia is 0, nitrite is 0, and nitrate is about 15ish. I have a digital thermometer which is reading 77. 7 and a thermometer that is reading the exact same temp. My heater is set at 78. The salinity is measured with a refractometer and I calibrate before each use, the salinity is 1.025. I have a power head but I removed it because the mollies were being blown everywhere. So I am just using a HOB fluval 70. I can see little bubbles inside the aquarium. I've always wondered if it is adequate filtration for the tank, I mean with my freshwater tank there is a lot of surface agitation and I don't see the same results in my saltwater. I've never heard of stray voltage, like check to see if there is faulty equipment? How would I check for stray voltage?? Stress yes, I noticed some stress signs from all three fishes. the clown was just swimming at the bottom breathing fast and hard, he was being pushed by the filter. Now the mollies, the one that died first was just constantly near the top breathing hard and heavy. The second one died 23 hours later and he was at the bottom and near the top breathing hard and heavy. They didn't show any signs of disease. I dont know why but I keep thinking there is something in the water column. I am running carbon at the moment just in case there is something. Thank you for helping.

@HB AL Yes I tested with a calibrated refractometer. I am using a fluval 70. Thank you for helping.

@Cell No I didn't quarantine the fish, because it was my first fish and I would have been able to dose any medication if needed. Especially since it is a FOWLR. Thank you.

@HuduVudu How can I tell if there is enough gas exchange?? I can see small bubbles. thank you

@Twoddler yes, I acclimated the mollies for 6 hours until the parameters were the same. Is that too long?? I read and watched videos, some people just throw the mollies in the tank just temp acclimate them, other acclimate them for hours, and some days. Thank you

@Alaeriel The mollies were FW. People acclimate them differently some said just throw the fish in there and some acclimated them. I chose to acclimate them over the course of a few hours. I didn't feel comfortable just tossing them in the tank. Thank you

Thank you all for helping

It sounds like the only real indicator is the clownfish, the mollies are real hit or miss. After a glance through all your parameters are great if you have been testing accurately. I think the only other major source we have not yet asked is what are you using for your water source? Tap water? RODI? something else?

 

[Circulita17]

It sounds like the only real indicator is the clownfish, the mollies are real hit or miss. After a glance through all your parameters are great if you have been testing accurately. I think the only other major source we have not yet asked is what are you using for your water source? Tap water? RODI? something else?

I use RO water and I dose prime since I was my hands with tap water before placing my hands inside the aquarium.

 

[schuby]

@Circulita17 Please know that pH is a result or effect. In a typical reef tank, it fluctuates between 8.1 and 8.3. The low is at night (lights off) and the high is during the day (lights on). A primary reason for this normal, daily fluctuation is due to plants and animals (usually algae and corals) that raise pH in response to light. Before the tank has these plants and animals, pH is not as high and it doesn't fluctuate much. This is all normal and expected.

My basic point is that without those plants and animals, your tank isn't expected to have a pH of 8+. Just follow some of the previous suggestions of removing the lid, adding surface agitation by powerhead, and a HOB skimmer to up your oxygen level and don't get distracted too much by pH.

Your dedication and interest will be a plus to this hobby.

 

[JAC-]

@Circulita17 Please know that pH is a result or effect. In a typical reef tank, it fluctuates between 8.1 and 8.3. The low is at night (lights off) and the high is during the day (lights on). A primary reason for this normal, daily fluctuation is due to plants and animals (usually algae and corals) that raise pH in response to light. Before the tank has these plants and animals, pH is not as high and it doesn't fluctuate much. This is all normal and expected.

My basic point is that without those plants and animals, your tank isn't expected to have a pH of 8+. Just follow some of the previous suggestions of removing the lid, adding surface agitation by powerhead, and a HOB skimmer to up your oxygen level and don't get distracted too much by pH.

Your dedication and interest will be a plus to this hobby.

That is a great point that I completely missed. There is nothing currently in the tank consuming the CO2 from the water.
Good catch @schuby

 

[Cell]

Well this one went in quite a few directions based off 1 dead clownfish that was not qt'd and only lasted a few hours, and some failed Molly saltwater conversions.

 

[JAC-]

@JAC- So I was messing with the air circulation in the room and I managed to increase the pH to 8.0. I will continue to monitor for fluctuations. I don't plan on messing with the pH using chemicals, I want a stable pH not one that fluctuates. I just put the order in for the redsea test kit, hopefully I get it soon. I started researching diatoms a few days ago since I haven't experienced them yet, especially since the tank is cycled. I turned the lights on about a week ago, so that could have been the issue. Can the rock be lowering the pH? I was told that it was live rock but I guess it is dry rock. I assumed it was live or seeded because it was in a tub with filtration and light, but as you can see from the picture it looks like dry rock. I didn't even cure the rock. I don't know anyone who has a saltwater tank. The only thing I can do at the moment is wait for the testing kit. I've been making my own water now, for water changes.

@calthrone I didn't even cure the rock I bought. The lady from the LFS told me it was live and I assumed it was and I placed it in the tank, I just rinsed it off with saltwater. I was going to tear down the tank, wash everything, and start all over, but I decided to come here and see if you guys can help me before I restart.

The PH of 8 is good news, as schuby pointed out nothing in your tank is consuming CO2 so that's probably as high as you are going to get and shows good indicators that you have increased your gas exchange.

I do second the point that PH isn't something you need to stress too much. What I was after was trying to help you test your gas exchange and cross that off the list of potential causes for your loss of fish.

To me it is still looking likely as the cause of your previous losses, but with the changes you have made it shouldn't be an issue anymore.

Your rock shouldn't be a factor in your PH. Not enough of one to cause problems for you anyway. It should be calcium carbonate, and it is supposed to raise PH if anything.

Starting with dry rock is ok too, it's what I do. It will require you to move much slower though as you have to cure it, but you have already started that.

 

[afishbestservedcold]

@HuduVudu Alrighty then, I removed the acrylic top and exposed the surface and placed the powerhead. The reason I placed it by my computer is so I can look at it while I work. I can always move it somewhere else if needed. I started looking at protein skimmers, they are pricey but definitely on my to get list. I am thinking of adding live rock on top of this dry rock. I will definitely buy mesh for the top so I wont have any fish jumping out. My vent is open and door will stay open 24/7. The computer room is the last rooms in the house and it does have a window. Hopefully this will work. I will stop going to those stores for my tanks. I am definitely getting the red sea testing kits. Thank you.

@JAC- I am going to order red sea testing kit from BRS. So what is a normal range for kh and ph? I want to add coral in the future. Pretty silly of me to put an acrylic top. I rechecked the ph and it was still the same color probably a little darker but not much 7.8, I left it running over night. What other factor can cause my pH to be low? Yes, I started looking into skimmers. Hopefully get one soon. Yes, I use RO water for top offs, the water I started with I bought from the LFS (3 hours away) not petco or petsmart. I checked the salinity which was 1.025, but I started mixing mine now since I wont be making that long drive just for water. I don't know if that is a big no-no buying pre-mixed water. Maybe I should start with invertebrates but I am scared since I don't have any algae growing. I don't want to starve them. Thank you

@calthrone when I first started the tank, I bought pre-mixed water from the LFS. Is that bad? I started making my own water I buy RO water and I used instant ocean sea salt. Thank you

@afishbestservedcold I have been trying to stay patient. The nearest LFS is three hours from me. Can I use carbon instead (it is running as we speak)? I also have chemi blue and purigen on hand. Or is chaeto/macros better?

I will order the invertebrates online. What can I feed them when I add them? my tank has not produce any algae. I don't want to starve them.

I have 10 lbs of rock and 10 lbs of live aragonite. I can add some live rock on top of the dry rock I have. No inverts at the moment, I stopped trying after my third kill. I dont want to kill more fishes. I want to see what else I can do before attempting once again. The only thing running at the moment is carbon. The lighting is an 160WE kessil. Thank you for helping.

ask any question and I will answer. Thank you for helping

@supernanoguy This was my first thought but I am unsure. I painted the back of the aquarium and when I did I made sure to cover the top so I wont get no paint inside. I dont know if some still managed to get inside. No, I do not use chemicals, soaps, or bleach just regular tap water and a clean napkin. I make sure to wash my hands before reaching in the tank. Also I rinsed off the rock with salt water when I got it from the LFS, and to be on the save side since I did use some tap water to rinse of the tank and other equipment, I dosed prime. Thank you so much

3 hours to the nearest LFS???...that sucks!!

Someone else can comment on carbon, I would say it is absolutely fine and wont hurt but I personally don't believe in its efficacy.

DONT use chemi blue/purigen/any other supplement/chemical/ dosing thing. Any of these will throw off your parameters - everything you and the corals/algae need is in the salt mix and the water.

Weird that you have NO algae, if true this is probably the biggest clue that something is up.

10lbs of rock and sand should be perfect. Dont run the light too high or two low, not sure what its on now but for a 10g id say keep it around 40-60% intensity until you get some corals. Peak PAR value, so i gather, is around 60% color on kessils. I also happen to like the shade of blue that throws off.

I haven't tried them yet but reefcleaners seems to get high praise on R2R and it is cheap, you might want to get snails and macro from them. Don't worry about feeding the snails, if they cant find anything to eat you are screwed anyways : ) but if you are that concerned they'll eat any flake/pellet/wafer food- freshwater or saltwater...they'd probably eat cardboard.


I think the next best thing you can do to get more useful advice here is to post some more photos, give us a few angles and zoom in on that rock. weird that you have no algae at all....

 

[HuduVudu]

Someone else can comment on carbon, I would say it is absolutely fine and wont hurt but I personally don't believe in its efficacy.

Just a note carbon has been implicated quite heavily in HLLE. Seems the dust is the issue and it takes time for said dust to be removed from the aquarium.

 

[afishbestservedcold]

Yeah I used to purchase premixed saltwater from my LFS, I used dry rock however, and I had very similar issues you did most of my fish I would put into the tank would die within 2 days or less. I then Switched to mixing my own salt (with my own RO filter which is actually a hardware store bought drinking water filter and it works great) used the same rock from my old tank into my new tank and I haven't had that problem since. If all else fails I would say try and buy a decent RO filter and mix your own water. Yeah as mentioned before you don't know how your LFS mixes their water and you don't know how often they change out their filters they could be mixing water with chlorine in it for all we know. That's just my personal experience however but like I said if all else fails that could be it.

+1 - gotta mix it yoself unless your store is legit

 

[ScubaFish802]

Just a note carbon has been implicated quite heavily in HLLE. Seems the dust is the issue and it takes time for said dust to be removed from the aquarium.

HLLE?

 

[afishbestservedcold]

Just a note carbon has been implicated quite heavily in HLLE. Seems the dust is the issue and it takes time for said dust to be removed from the aquarium.

side note: WOW thank you! My friend set up his first freshwater tank a few months ago (hes only ever had salt) and put a massive bag of carbon in "for the algae"......basically every fish and shrimp died until he took the bag out last week

 

[HuduVudu]

HLLE?

HLLE (Head & Lateral Line Erosion)

Head & Lateral Line Erosion "HLLE": Symptoms - HLLE literally looks as though the skin is rotting or peeling off the fish. Affected areas usually include the face and lateral line, and may be white in color. Treatment options - This is more of a condition than an actual disease. Since no one...

www.reef2reef.com

 

[Cell]

Not sure scaring new reefers away from carbon is the way to go based on anecdotal evidence.

 

[ScubaFish802]

Not sure scaring new reefers away from carbon is the way to go based on anecdotal evidence.

The article does mention high quality carbon isn’t an issue, this is the first time I have heard anyone recommend not to use carbon at all though.

 

[HuduVudu]

Not sure scaring new reefers away from carbon is the way to go based on anecdotal evidence.

It isn't anecdotal. There is a study and it is pretty clear though not definitive. If it is scaring people to provide them information so that they can make informed decisions then so be it. I would rather be informed than be trying to puzzle out why something is happening later on down the road when I could have made a more informed decision earlier.

Honestly if there is problem, water changes will be a faster cleaner and easier solution.

EDIT: Here is the thread with Jay's study. I think this is better thread. I posted the other thread for pictures.

@802ScubaFish

Tang HLLE and Aquarium Covers

For years I have not been able to keep a Hippo or purple tang. They all end up with HLLE. I have spent hours and hours reading R2R posts, researching, testing and making adjustments with no success. Many of us have heard a list of the primary suspects: 1) Poor carbon leaching into the...

www.reef2reef.com

 

[JAC-]

It isn't anecdotal. There is a study and it is pretty clear though not definitive. If it is scaring people to provide them information so that they can make informed decisions then so be it. I would rather be informed than be trying to puzzle out why something is happening later on down the road when I could have made a more informed decision earlier.

Honestly if there is problem, water changes will be a faster cleaner and easier solution.

EDIT: Here is the thread with Jay's study. I think this is better thread. I posted the other thread for pictures.

@802ScubaFish

Tang HLLE and Aquarium Covers

For years I have not been able to keep a Hippo or purple tang. They all end up with HLLE. I have spent hours and hours reading R2R posts, researching, testing and making adjustments with no success. Many of us have heard a list of the primary suspects: 1) Poor carbon leaching into the...

www.reef2reef.com

Hey friend, this is by no means a challenge but do you happen to have a link to the study or anything? I would like to know more. Apologies if I missed it in the other post, I only lightly skimmed it.

I will say I've used activated carbon for 30 years and am not aware of any negative impact (outside of it absorbing medications or using it in a way that it removes beneficial nutrients) but I acknowledge that I may have been lucky or missed a correlation somewhere.

This is a new concept to me.

Agreed; so long as the problem isn't in the source water, water changes would be a more direct and quicker way to remove a problem.

 

[HuduVudu]

Hey friend, this is by no means a challenge but do you happen to have a link to the study or anything? I would like to know more. Apologies if I missed it in the other post, I only lightly skimmed it.

I will say I've used activated carbon for 30 years and am not aware of any negative impact (outside of it absorbing medications or using it in a way that it removes beneficial nutrients) but I acknowledge that I may have been lucky or missed a correlation somewhere.

This is a new concept to me.

No worries it is correct to be skeptical of any information.

It is in the thread I linked, first page last post. The post is from Jay Hemdal. If you are bored you can read the thread. I get schooled by Jay on this.

The study is by Jay Hemdal or local disease expert.