My rant because no one else gets it

[Fumanchu]

Well you guys are better than me I that beginners luck thing skipped right over me the took me about 2 months just to get my skimmer dialed in and ilost all my zoas, sps for the first 9 months then had an ich outbreak when I bought a flameangel from the LFS but I refused to give up I owed it to all the corals I've killed not to fail an finally almost 2 years in I'm starting to success

 

[seastar]

Well you guys are better than me I that beginners luck thing skipped right over me the took me about 2 months just to get my skimmer dialed in and ilost all my zoas, sps for the first 9 months then had an ich outbreak when I bought a flameangel from the LFS but I refused to give up I owed it to all the corals I've killed not to fail an finally almost 2 years in I'm starting to success

Tons of success I'd say, that tank is looking great!

 

[Fumanchu]

thanks Seastar

 

[Sipec]

I’m new to this, can someone tell me what the big deal with dinos is?

 

[Fumanchu]

Hopefully you'll never have to find out

 

[spiraling]

I’m new to this, can someone tell me what the big deal with dinos is?

toxic to the livestock and hard to eradicate

 

[Adam G]

Enjoyed this thread thoroughly. I can echo the experience of several here. It feels like either this hobby has gotten tougher or I have lost my touch. After 20 plus years of reefing and several 150 plus gallon systems that would grow SPS like weeds my current tank in my new home is giving me fits.

I think you guys are onto something with the whole live rock thing. I too went a different route this time and used Carib Sea Life Rock instead of live rock Mostly because every square inch of my live rock was covered with brightly colored mushrooms. They would grow over the bases of my SPS and burn them. Everyone thought they were beautiful but I considered them weeds after years of battle with them. I actually acid washed all my 15 year old live rock from my last tank breakdown and sold it locally as dry rock.

My reefer 525xl is a year old now and finally starting to level out. In the past year I have had Bryopsis outbreaks, Velvet outbreaks, chronic low PH, SPS RTNing for no apparent reason, too much light which turned out to be not enough light, and list goes on.

My last tank in my previous home was setup with live rock from my previous system breakdown when I decided to upgrade and had almost no cycle. It grew SPS so fast I had to prune out bucketfuls of frags. I had 25 fish in a 150 gallon tank and never had an ich outbreak or disease of any kind. Things were stable and other than 2 part and water changes was basically maintenance free.

So seastar you are not alone in this battle. Let us hope that as our tanks mature and we knock down our issues one by one we have thriving tanks and can focus on pruning down our huge acro colonies instead of putting out the latest fire.

 

[Flippers4pups]

It’s becoming more reported that tanks started with dry, dead rock are taking longer to mature. Case in point my current system. Started out this time, the first time for me, with dry rock.

It has taken me longer with this system than with any other previous builds to “get going”. At the six month mark, I took out half of my dry rock and replaced it with live rock. The dry went into my sump.

After several more months, it turned around and now every frag is growing at a fast rate and plating well over their plugs.

Story:

Mike paletta recently put up a new, smaller tank in his home to grow out SPS. His 300 gallon is a legendary SPS tank. For the first time he used dry rock in this new tank. For nearly a year he struggled with his SPS frags and most would die off. Frags taken from the 300 mother colonies.

On day his friend Dr Sanjay joshi came over and they discussed what could be the problem. Sanjay suggested removing the dry rock and replacing it with live rock. Mike did this. Within a short time Mike’s new tank grew SPS with no problems. Everything else on this new tank matched the 300.

There is way more we don’t understand about the biological processes happening and connection between micro organisms, down to the molecular level on and in the rock and it’s relationship with coral.

I’ll never build another system without live rock again.

 

[seastar]

So seastar you are not alone in this battle. Let us hope that as our tanks mature and we knock down our issues one by one we have thriving tanks and can focus on pruning down our huge acro colonies instead of putting out the latest fire.

Cheers to that!

In the meantime, another cloudy FTS after a night spent fighting the good fight.

 

[seastar]

Story:

Mike paletta recently put up a new, smaller tank in his home to grow out SPS. His 300 gallon is a legendary SPS tank. For the first time he used dry rock in this new tank. For nearly a year he struggled with his SPS frags and most would die off. Frags taken from the 300 mother colonies.

On day his friend Dr Sanjay joshi came over and they discussed what could be the problem. Sanjay suggested removing the dry rock and replacing it with live rock. Mike did this. Within a short time Mike’s new tank grew SPS with no problems. Everything else on this new tank matched the 300.

There is way more we don’t understand about the biological processes happening and connection between micro organisms, down to the molecular level on and in the rock and it’s relationship with coral.

I’ll never build another system without live rock again.

Great story, thanks for sharing! Two of the heavy hitters in the hobby there no doubt, not to mention my admiration for the author sharing this story. I just checked out your build thread and wow...

 

[rockskimmerflow]

I start every tank with dry rock to avoid pests and have no issues as long as seeding with a decent range of microfauna is done after the initial bacterial cycle completes. I have dealt with dinos coming up on 10+ times in customer tanks. Often times customers are near tearing their tanks down when I first get a chance to see the system and ID the dinoflagellates they're dealing with. Most of the time they've been told it's cyano or diatoms and more nutrient control/less feeding is the cure. In nearly every case in my area it is Ostreopsis ovata and the tanks have no green algaes, virtually non existent pod populations, and worst of all are using nopox or vodka or biopellets etc. The most surefire fix, has worked every time so far, is UV sterilizer running with a low flow rate, seed with green algaes especially turf/hair algaes that have structure, seed with amphipods and if possible absolutely munnid isopods, and finally make certain you have detectable nitrate and low, but detectable phosphate in the range of 0.02-0.08. You will need to test regularly at the outset because dinos are absolute beasts at assimilating nutrients into their biomass. Until you break their bloom you will need to add a lot more food/nitrate/phos than you would expect to get numbers that register repeatedly on tests. Once they stop blooming it will take much less input to maintain nutrient levels, so as long as you stay on top of them you will buy time for your new beneficial critters to set up and take over the real estate the dinos were monopolizing.

Best of luck to the OP, I can feel your pain as I have met and helped many people who were near giving up on their tanks and had similar stories of filthy neglected systems in the past that never had algae problems like they were dealing with currently.

 

[Flippers4pups]

Thank very much! As I stated, this build was a struggle to mature and become stable enough for my coral to take off. Not doing anything different with this one except the Leds and the dry rock. Even started out with T5’s and it was the same struggle until I change out some of the rock. Then things changed for the better. Crazy!

 

[seastar]

I start every tank with dry rock to avoid pests and have no issues as long as seeding with a decent range of microfauna is done after the initial bacterial cycle completes. I have dealt with dinos coming up on 10+ times in customer tanks. Often times customers are near tearing their tanks down when I first get a chance to see the system and ID the dinoflagellates they're dealing with. Most of the time they've been told it's cyano or diatoms and more nutrient control/less feeding is the cure. In nearly every case in my area it is Ostreopsis ovata and the tanks have no green algaes, virtually non existent pod populations, and worst of all are using nopox or vodka or biopellets etc. The most surefire fix, has worked every time so far, is UV sterilizer running with a low flow rate, seed with green algaes especially turf/hair algaes that have structure, seed with amphipods and if possible absolutely munnid isopods, and finally make certain you have detectable nitrate and low, but detectable phosphate in the range of 0.02-0.08. You will need to test regularly at the outset because dinos are absolute beasts at assimilating nutrients into their biomass. Until you break their bloom you will need to add a lot more food/nitrate/phos than you would expect to get numbers that register repeatedly on tests. Once they stop blooming it will take much less input to maintain nutrient levels, so as long as you stay on top of them you will buy time for your new beneficial critters to set up and take over the real estate the dinos were monopolizing.

Best of luck to the OP, I can feel your pain as I have met and helped many people who were near giving up on their tanks and had similar stories of filthy neglected systems in the past that never had algae problems like they were dealing with currently.

I wish I could just hammer on the like button on this all night, one of my types is in fact Ostreopsis ovata. I also tried out biopellets when I setup the tank. Im going to order some pods and some turf algae, thanks for the advice. It's nice to know you've been able to help out that many people with this approach as well. This very much follows what is coming out of @mcarroll 's dino battle thread, with some additional info that I think could really help a ton of people out.

 

[rockskimmerflow]

I wish I could just hammer on the like button on this all night, one of my types is in fact Ostreopsis ovata. I also tried out biopellets when I setup the tank. Im going to order some pods and some turf algae, thanks for the advice. It's nice to know you've been able to help out that many people with this approach as well. This very much follows what is coming out of @mcarroll 's dino battle thread, with some additional info that I think could really help a ton of people out.

You're certainly on the right track. It will feel like a slow process for a week or two until things start to turn around much faster than you'd expect. Stability is key. @mcarroll and I definitely have a similar consensus on the best approach for most dino situations. A lot of people really want a quick fix and if one existed that would be awesome, but it would never solve the root cause of the issue or prevent reinfestation after subsequent exposure.

I'd imagine that many systems have been exposed to dinoflagellates of the virulent strains over the years the reef hobby has existed. It just hasn't been until the last few years that hyper effective carbon or algal scrubber based nutrient control methods have come into widespread use. I think it is the ease with which most hobbyists are hitting 0 nitrate/0 phos has majorly contributed to the recent surge in reported dinoflagellate devastations of otherwise dialed in reef tanks. New tanks are especially vulnerable due to the lack of biodiversity and established sessile fauna. Using real live rock will certainly help alleviate this, but I caution those thinking that that is the reason for the poor results in someone like Paletta's situation. I have started tanks designed just to display purely corals and used only bare glass/acrylic, powerheads, and an air driven sponge for mechanical/bio filtration. I can assure you corals of all species can thrive in these setups so there is no magic bacterial interaction going on in mature rock that allows corals to survive better. Maybe the common dry rock sources are leaching something to irritate corals? I have no way of knowing, but I acid wash all the dry rock I start tanks with and have never had a problem getting corals to base down on them within a few weeks of a tank being filled and cycled.

Edit: Also munnid isopods really are the business for ostreopsis in my experience. They seem to explode once established in dino ridden tanks. Their numbers tend to taper off after a bloom has been eradicated so that indicates to me they are consuming dinos as at least a significant portion of their food intake. They are cool little centipede looking guys too and fun to watch run on the rock once there's no more dino slime on things.

 

[Salty1962]

You can only go up from here;Happy Hang in there, it takes time, patience, then more time and patience, and experience.;Smug

 

[Flippers4pups]

You're certainly on the right track. It will feel like a slow process for a week or two until things start to turn around much faster than you'd expect. Stability is key. @mcarroll and I definitely have a similar consensus on the best approach for most dino situations. A lot of people really want a quick fix and if one existed that would be awesome, but it would never solve the root cause of the issue or prevent reinfestation after subsequent exposure.

I'd imagine that many systems have been exposed to dinoflagellates of the virulent strains over the years the reef hobby has existed. It just hasn't been until the last few years that hyper effective carbon or algal scrubber based nutrient control methods have come into widespread use. I think it is the ease with which most hobbyists are hitting 0 nitrate/0 phos has majorly contributed to the recent surge in reported dinoflagellate devastations of otherwise dialed in reef tanks. New tanks are especially vulnerable due to the lack of biodiversity and established sessile fauna. Using real live rock will certainly help alleviate this, but I caution those thinking that that is the reason for the poor results in someone like Paletta's situation. I have started tanks designed just to display purely corals and used only bare glass/acrylic, powerheads, and an air driven sponge for mechanical/bio filtration. I can assure you corals of all species can thrive in these setups so there is no magic bacterial interaction going on in mature rock that allows corals to survive better. Maybe the common dry rock sources are leaching something to irritate corals? I have no way of knowing, but I acid wash all the dry rock I start tanks with and have never had a problem getting corals to base down on them within a few weeks of a tank being filled and cycled.

Edit: Also munnid isopods really are the business for ostreopsis in my experience. They seem to explode once established in dino ridden tanks. Their numbers tend to taper off after a bloom has been eradicated so that indicates to me they are consuming dinos as at least a significant portion of their food intake. They are cool little centipede looking guys too and fun to watch run on the rock once there's no more dino slime on things.

I lean to agree on the mined dryrock leaching minerals/toxins into the water column that could irritate them. Paletta and Joshi may have assumed a biological connection lacking, not leaching as a culprit.

My personal experience with dry was similar to Paletta’s and changing the rock out with live did have a positive result. Coincidence, possible.

Without scientific/laboratory testing of the rock and water to proof this, it’s just speculation.

 

[FlyinBryan]

The waiting for our tanks to mature and settle is the hardest part of this hobby. Hang in there!

This! How old is tank? Also, do you have enough flow? Have you done a 3 day light black out? Have enough cuc?

You may know all of these, however, I have set up several new tanks and I always forget something.

Sump? Fuge? Gfo/carbon? Any details?

 

[rockskimmerflow]

I lean to agree on the mined dryrock leaching minerals/toxins into the water column that could irritate them. Paletta and Joshi may have assumed a biological connection lacking, not leaching as a culprit.

My personal experience with dry was similar to Paletta’s and changing the rock out with live did have a positive result. Coincidence, possible.

Without scientific/laboratory testing of the rock and water to proof this, it’s just speculation.

Understandable to assume biological lacking, but I assure you I have kept corals in tanks with nothing more than foam/plastic as the bio media and no aragonite/rock of any kind for months and they thrive just fine so long as the nitrifying bacterial cycle is stable, so I don't think starting a tank without any input of real live rock can be linked as the cause of lacking some mysterious biological process or organisms. I don't doubt your experience at all though and I'm sure that adding the live rock did effect a positive impact on yours and Paletta's tanks, but I think that is likely more correlation with another variable we are missing here. Interesting topic for sure. I maintain a great many reef tanks and only a few (maybe 7 or 8) have had real live rock added specifically at the owner's request rather than any need in terms of the livestock. Never noticed any difference in terms of the long term health of corals or fish in the systems. Glad your system is working smoothly now! I know that is a big weight off your shoulders when the corals are finally dialed in and putting on size!

 

[mcarroll]

[...]” - Herman Melville

The art of Jeet Kun Do by Bruce Lee is a book of philosophy.
The lessons of both writers apply to life. They also apply to reeftanks. Not a coincidence.

This is great to see!! My brain has been regugitating Sun Tzu into my reef discussions lately!

Bryopsis is another "pest algae" I've been paying some attention to. The big fluconazole "cure" thread makes me think of these:

Chapter II · Waging War

1. What is essential in war is victory, not prolonged operations.
   What began as a one time "cure" has devolved into a "repeat as needed" thing – like shampoo.

Chapter III · Strategic Attack

1. What is of supreme importance in war is to attack the enemy's strategy.
   I haven't found anyone seriously looking into "the bryopsis strategy" so far.
   (I'll never tell how much time I've spent reading about dino's! )
2. It is said that if you know your enemies and know yourself, you will not be imperiled in a hundred battles; if you do not know your enemies but do know yourself, you will win one and lose one; if you do not know your enemies nor yourself, you will be imperiled in every single battle.
   Even assuming folks know their own tanks, they don't know bryopsis. You'll never get a better than a "win some/lose some" win ratio this way even if your "cure" is real. (It's pretty real!)
   
3. For to win one hundred victories in one hundred battles is not the acme of skill. To subdue the enemy without fighting is the acme of skill.
   Of course you'll never be selected as a general if you can't learn your way to this one. I think we're all still trying to get here, right?

Of course there are lots more. Art of War isn't even a long book! 82 pages in my translation.

After my bryopis , red fuzzy hair Alge took over. (Insert hulk wanna smash here), so I did nothing. :mad:Nothing. Just walked away.
:mad::mad::mad::mad::mad::mad::mad::mad::mad::mad:!

It's all gone now.

This was always my leading strategy on freshwater tanks. If it was doing something bad, it was clearly my fault – so hands off for a week or few! I didn't know a lot back then and measured even less, but I never lost fish and had a nice planted tank.

My friend called me GPS King - I don't know why

That's the best tank I've seen in what feels like a long, long time. Very unique!!

I’m new to this, can someone tell me what the big deal with dinos is?

Dr Jekyle and Mr Hyde of algae.

Day to day, they just run around the tank
– a few of them here and there
– seeking out dissolved nutrients and photosynthesizing away
– in harmony with the rest of your microbial food web.

But rather than die off when nutrients run low like a "good little algae" they go freaking nuts and start eating things like they are dag-gone PAC-MAN! ;Nailbiting

They bloom out of control because they've got a ton of food available (in terms of all your tank's bacteria) and as someone already mentioned they generate toxins in the same family as palytoxin. ;Nailbiting;Nailbiting

In the process of blooming, they will take out your microbes, your pods, your snails....maybe even your fish and corals....and maybe even make you sick from breathing it!!! ;Doctor;Nailbiting;Nurse

Best way to avoid them would be to set up and run an old-school tank.

;StopNo funny stuff like dry rock.

;StopNo added forms of nutrient removal. E.g. GFO, carbon dosing, bio-plates, et al. Don't make nutrients run low!

Growing your tank slowly and being conservative in general usually also need to be rolled in there somehow.


So no big deal.

 

[mcarroll]

My Dino thread title is kinda in line with Sun as well: Dinoflagellates – Are You Tired Of Battling Altogether?

Though I admit Sun wasn't on my mind at all in those days....the title was inspired by one of General @Paul B's posts on an algae thread where he was "like why are you all battling something all the time...isn't it supposed to be enjoyable?" (I'm paraphrasing.)

Duh. There's a General speaking!

Between that and the old dino cure thread, I quit my whole prior strategy of looking for cures. Turns out the cures all seem to be based on killing stuff off that really can't be killed off. ;Mask

When I thought about it chemistry death experiments were not at all what I signed up for when I bought into this hobby.