My speculation: Vibrant has some fluconazole in it...

[MnFish1]

I didn't see this either...

Whether QAC is the active ingredient or not is irrelevant to me. I want to manage my aquarium in a particular way. UWC pushing the bacterial component in their marketing without even listing QAC in their ingredients list is deceptive and has led to me adding something I did not want to use and taking a risk that I didn't realise I had taken and therefore wasn't considering how to manage.

@UWC I've tagged you a few times now and I certainly have not seen anything where you categorically confirm or deny QAC other than alluding to having the answer but not wanting to tell us just yet. Well I think now is the time to enlighten us.

Agree - however - the question is always - what is the 'active ingredient'. Right? A small amount of QAC - is not the same as algaefix - with 4.5 percent. Most of this thread (Except the experiments done by @taricha) - are rank speculation. including mine - except - I've also got a BS in microbiology - and have both criticized and praised vibrant. My guess is that the amount of QAC in vibrant (despite @taricha's experiments - is not the same. There are many reasons for this opinion.

 

[Fortunato]

It's got eleven herbs and spices in it. That's what makes it so good.

 

[taricha]

@DrZoidburg you are posting information I already told you was wrong in PM.

Delete your post. It might confuse others.

 

[taricha]

My guess is that the amount of QAC in vibrant (despite @taricha's experiments - is not the same.

A "guess" is no longer necessary. See post 301. The size of the "quat" response is the same.

 

[MnFish1]

A "guess" is no longer necessary. See post 301. The size of the "quat" response is the same.

@taricha said:

"I used a LaMotte QAC titration kit. The indicator gives the "quat" response to both AlgaeFix and Vibrant, but the titration step does not work because precipitate forms instead. So I did analysis of the color change from the quat indicator solution to see if I could find a nice dose-response relationship to AlgaeFix and/or Vibrant."

1. Why did a precipitate form?
2. Is the test designed for use in salt water?
3. This test measures up to 500 ppm. A one percent solution is 10,000 ppm. A 4.5 percent solution is 45,000 ppm.

I apologize - I do not think you're doing the testing completely properly. I do think you're doing the best you can. I fully believe there is QAC in Vibrant at some concentration - I do not believe that the tests done prove that the concentration is the same/similar - nor the same compound.

 

[Charlie’s Frags]

@taricha said:

"I used a LaMotte QAC titration kit. The indicator gives the "quat" response to both AlgaeFix and Vibrant, but the titration step does not work because precipitate forms instead. So I did analysis of the color change from the quat indicator solution to see if I could find a nice dose-response relationship to AlgaeFix and/or Vibrant."

1. Why did a precipitate form?
2. Is the test designed for use in salt water?
3. This test measures up to 500 ppm. A one percent solution is 10,000 ppm. A 4.5 percent solution is 45,000 ppm.

I apologize - I do not think you're doing the testing completely properly. I do think you're doing the best you can. I fully believe there is QAC in Vibrant at some concentration - I do not believe that the tests done prove that the concentration is the same/similar - nor the same compound.

Build Thread - Red Sea Reefer 525

You corals are absolutely awesome , I need to stabilized my tank it has never been like this, no clue exactly what happen and still trying to ping pong what happen, where has I fail after couple years , ughhh Thanks - every tank has their ups and downs.

www.reef2reef.com

What “popular supplement” did you dose?

Asking for a friend


Never mind
Found it…..It was vibrant

 

[taricha]

1. Why did a precipitate form?
2. Is the test designed for use in salt water?
3. This test measures up to 500 ppm. A one percent solution is 10,000 ppm. A 4.5 percent solution is 45,000 ppm.

less posting, more reading.
1. probably this

This paper[pdf] shows how a quat shifts the spectrum of (basic) methyl orange to the left (opposite from pH change), and how a higher dose of the quat causes the shift to revert almost all the way back (see Fig1). AlgaeFix shows this effect and has no "additives" just a polyquat and water. Vibrant shows the exact same effect. (Bonus: also in the paper is an explanation for why some quats can cause the titration step of the Lamotte kit to fail and form brown precipitate.)

2. who said anything about saltwater for that kit?
3. check the units in the post.

I do think you're doing the best you can.

Lol, ok. But you think I blew the concentration, and didn't scan over several orders of magnitude to find the relevant concentration for a linear response, and did a kit in saltwater that's clearly meant for normal water testing. I'll try no to be a little insulted at what you think my best is.

 

[DrZoidburg]

@DrZoidburg you are posting information I already told you was wrong in PM.

Delete your post. It might confuse others.

Ok cool good job but go to their website which I linked above. Even this bottle doesn't show kit code #'s.. I'll trust them the sellers of the kit.

 

[DrZoidburg]

hmm

 

[MnFish1]

Build Thread - Red Sea Reefer 525

You corals are absolutely awesome , I need to stabilized my tank it has never been like this, no clue exactly what happen and still trying to ping pong what happen, where has I fail after couple years , ughhh Thanks - every tank has their ups and downs.

www.reef2reef.com

What “popular supplement” did you dose?

Asking for a friend


Never mind
Found it…..It was vibrant

Yes - If you had paid more attention, you would have seen that I've written about it multiple times IN THIS THREAD lol. That has nothing to do with the comments I made about QAC or not being present.

But - just to recap - I used vibrant in my freshwater tank - it worked like a charm. In my reef tank - I used it to kill hair algae - after an apex malfunction - and multiple deaths. It seemed to affect both soft and stony corals. I would not use it again. I'm not a fanboy for Vibrant - never have been.

 

[MnFish1]

less posting, more reading.
1. probably this

2. who said anything about saltwater for that kit?
3. check the units in the post.



Lol, ok. But you think I blew the concentration, and didn't scan over several orders of magnitude to find the relevant concentration for a linear response, and did a kit in saltwater that's clearly meant for normal water testing. I'll try no to be a little insulted at what you think my best is.

Great - take what I said in the spirit in which it was meant - which was not to insult you. You weren't clear in your post - and you're trying to make me look bad. If you want to explain how you did something - just explain it - I asked a question.

I've said it before - I'll say it again. You may very well be correct in everything you say. The results I have seen do not convince me that you have proven that the same chemical thats in algaefix is in vibrant - nor that the concentrations are the same.

You gloss over the question about how vibrant gets away with having supposedly the same ingredients as algaefix - yet Algaefix has an EPA permit.

You also gloss over the answer the company has given you.

You yourself acknowledge that Vibrant contains bacteria - at least that was my impression from the beginning of the thread when you were posting.

Where is the huge disagreement here? I said - I believe Vibrant contains QAC. I'm not sure you can say anything about the concentration. Thats it.

 

[MnFish1]

hmm

I don't understand the significance of these pictures - or the picture of the bottle?

 

[JCOLE]

less posting, more reading.
1. probably this

2. who said anything about saltwater for that kit?
3. check the units in the post.



Lol, ok. But you think I blew the concentration, and didn't scan over several orders of magnitude to find the relevant concentration for a linear response, and did a kit in saltwater that's clearly meant for normal water testing. I'll try no to be a little insulted at what you think my best is.

@taricha don't let them get under your skin. WE all see what they are doing. You keep doing what you do best. You're the only one that has proven anything.

 

[DrZoidburg]

Even if it was a bacterial biproduct it would be hugely trace amounts hardly toxic.@MnFish1 this is proof of concept that amino acids can complex into insoluble amino acid Molybdenum phosphate compounds

 

[MnFish1]

Even if it was a bacterial biproduct it would be hugely trace amounts hardly toxic.@MnFish1 this is proof of concept that amino acids can complex into insoluble amino acid Molybdenum phosphate compounds

OK - but what does that have to do with the discussion? I believe that Even Taricha has stated that there are bacteria in Vibrant (or at least spores)

Yes - If you had paid more attention, you would have seen that I've written about it multiple times IN THIS THREAD lol. That has nothing to do with the comments I made about QAC or not being present.

But - just to recap - I used vibrant in my freshwater tank - it worked like a charm. In my reef tank - I used it to kill hair algae - after an apex malfunction - and multiple deaths. It seemed to affect both soft and stony corals. I would not use it again. I'm not a fanboy for Vibrant - never have been.

Oh - and PS - in Vibrants defense - I used a higher than recommended dose - and believe (but not sure) - that I had gotten the fish only version as compared to the reef version. BUT - it does bring up a question for @taricha - I guess. Have you tested the different versions? In theory, you should be able to see a different amount of QAC in each type - if indeed QAC was the active ingredient?

 

[Charlie’s Frags]

Yes - If you had paid more attention, you would have seen that I've written about it multiple times IN THIS THREAD lol. That has nothing to do with the comments I made about QAC or not being present.

But - just to recap - I used vibrant in my freshwater tank - it worked like a charm. In my reef tank - I used it to kill hair algae - after an apex malfunction - and multiple deaths. It seemed to affect both soft and stony corals. I would not use it again. I'm not a fanboy for Vibrant - never have been.

In my defense….It’s impossible for someone as dumb as me to remember what each person posted or didn’t post on a 20 page thread. At least I went back edited it.

90% of the info/data on this thread is way over my dumb head. Since you’re a microbiologist, and I’m sorry if this is the dumbest question asked so far, but what else could kill algae, and corals in such small doses but not harm fish, inverts, etc

 

[DrZoidburg]

It was said earlier it was observed using a phosphate checker. (a precipitate with matching description) as well as when using lamotte test which I have documents that indicate one of the reagents can also do this with amino acids

 

[JCOLE]

In my defense….It’s impossible for someone as dumb as me to remember what each person posted or didn’t post on a 20 page thread. At least I went back edited it.

90% of the info/data on this thread is way over my dumb head. Since you’re a microbiologist, and I’m sorry if this is the dumbest question asked so far, but what else could kill algae, and corals in such small doses but not harm fish, inverts, etc

You know i had to. I couldn't resist.

 

[MnFish1]

In my defense….It’s impossible for someone as dumb as me to remember what each person posted or didn’t post on a 20 page thread. At least I went back edited it.

90% of the info/data on this thread is way over my dumb head. Since you’re a microbiologist, and I’m sorry if this is the dumbest question asked so far, but what else could kill algae, and corals in such small doses but not harm fish, inverts, etc

No one said you were dumb - but - you have to admit the way you worded your first post was a little 'attacking'. Right? Of course I don't hold anyone responsible for remembering anything

BUT - to answer your question. 1) it could be a direct toxic effect of 'something' in the bottle. 2) it could have been coincidence (I don't think so) - 3) it could have been nutrient related - i.e. bacteria using up nutrients - which in my tank tend to run 'low'. It could have been that I used the incorrect dose.

BUT - it wasn't overnight that I had problems with coral - it was over perhaps a week or so. Second - the reason I wouldn't use Vibrant again is not necessarily a total indictment of them - as I think I overdosed it - but its my philosophy to avoid dosing of any products - as it seems that every time I do - it causes more problems than was designed to help.

 

[DrZoidburg]

Honestly I don't now why I am getting a lot of hate. I am only using my brain and trying to think objectively for a solution. Also note in a pm before I was ever accused of anything ridiculous. I have conveyed that what I think one is doing is not invalid or wrong in anyway. Only that I disagree for my own reasons. Also note I am not paid by anyone. Nor have I ever used this product. I do wonder if any has measured orp in bad events.