My SPS are dying, no clue why!

[ReeferMadness80G]

Do you run any carbon? Could be chemical ware fare in that little tank with the nems and softies…

Hey thanks for the suggestion, I usually run a bag of chemipure, you think thats sufficient?

 

[Troylee]

Hey thanks for the suggestion, I usually run a bag of chemipure, you think thats sufficient?

Depending which one you use and how often you change it might be..

 

[Lavey29]

I think several factors are in play here. The primary one is stability. You took a long running stable tank environment and made it unstable not only through the move but also with your in tank changes such as the rock. This completely changes your biome. It will take time to find its equilibrium again which is essential for SPS success. Your ICP shows some key trace elements deficient so I would focus on correcting that. You want nitrates at 10 and phosphate at .05 to .1 for safe nutrients levels. Have you checked par with your XR15? I was shocked how low the par was with my XR15 lights when I finally checked. I run mine at 100% intensity now just to get reasonable par for my SPS at the top.

 

[Troylee]

I think several factors are in play here. The primary one is stability. You took a long running stable tank environment and made it unstable not only through the move but also with your in tank changes such as the rock. This completely changes your biome. It will take time to find its equilibrium again which is essential for SPS success. Your ICP shows some key trace elements deficient so I would focus on correcting that. You want nitrates at 10 and phosphate at .05 to .1 for safe nutrients levels. Have you checked par with your XR15? I was shocked how low the par was with my XR15 lights when I finally checked. I run mine at 100% intensity now just to get reasonable par for my SPS at the top.

Light won’t be a issue.. if it was they would just brown out and grow slow.. I had a single xr15 on my 60 gal cube and it grew Sps like crazy, no matter what the par says lol..

 

[X-37B]

Do you run an ato?
You may want to feed the fish more.
Po4 is fine as the numbers you see are what your export system is not getting.
I would dose po4 and monitor, just keep it below 0.1.

I run DSR ez-trace. You may want to look at it. It will keep some of the elements that are low in your system in range.

You also may want to try KZ flatworm stop. It will strengthen corals that are weak. I use it when nothing else seems to have any effect with good results.

Low po4 does better with an alk of 7 from my experience.

 

[arking_mark]

Corals need stable parameters, light, flow, major/minor elements/ions, and nutrients.

It always comes down to one of those items when SPS aren't thriving.

Most of the time, the cause of SPS issues happened weeks BEFORE the observed issue.

There are also thoughts around the relationships of NO3, PO4, Alk, and PAR:

Relationship between NO3, PO4, Alk, and PAR

There was a very interesting thread on this: https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/light-alkalinity-nutrients.319223/ My takeaway was: Post in thread 'Light, Alkalinity, Nutrients.' https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/light-alkalinity-nutrients.319223/post-9454985 If these are the general...

www.reef2reef.com

So when I troubleshoot issues:
1. Is the tank mature enough for the type of coral?
2. What changes have been made to the tank in the last several weeks?
3. Does the NO3/PO4/Alk/PAR relationship look good?
4. Are parameters stable? Anything experiencing deviations or swings?
5. How is PAR? Any changes?
6. How is Flow? Any changes?
7. How are nutrients? Any changes?
8. Any disease, pests, CUC, or inhabitants that would negatively affect your coral?

 

[ReeferMadness80G]

I think several factors are in play here. The primary one is stability. You took a long running stable tank environment and made it unstable not only through the move but also with your in tank changes such as the rock. This completely changes your biome. It will take time to find its equilibrium again which is essential for SPS success. Your ICP shows some key trace elements deficient so I would focus on correcting that. You want nitrates at 10 and phosphate at .05 to .1 for safe nutrients levels. Have you checked par with your XR15? I was shocked how low the par was with my XR15 lights when I finally checked. I run mine at 100% intensity now just to get reasonable par for my SPS at the top.

Thanks! I’ve raised my nutrients now so we’ll see how that does. I have checked PAR and yeah I too was really shocked at the levels at like 5” under the surface I was at like 390 at 100%. I figured something must’ve been wrong with the par meter I rented so that’s crazy you saw that too.

 

[ReeferMadness80G]

Do you run an ato?
You may want to feed the fish more.
Po4 is fine as the numbers you see are what your export system is not getting.
I would dose po4 and monitor, just keep it below 0.1.

I run DSR ez-trace. You may want to look at it. It will keep some of the elements that are low in your system in range.

You also may want to try KZ flatworm stop. It will strengthen corals that are weak. I use it when nothing else seems to have any effect with good results.

Low po4 does better with an alk of 7 from my experience.

I’ve always wanted to try it hat KZ Flatworm stop but never have, I’ve heard a lot of good things about it. I think I will pick up some now with your advice and I’ll check out the eztrace also. Do you mean auto top off? Bc yes of course I run one, what’re you thinkin? I’m curious..

 

[ReeferMadness80G]

Corals need stable parameters, light, flow, major/minor elements/ions, and nutrients.

It always comes down to one of those items when SPS aren't thriving.

Most of the time, the cause of SPS issues happened weeks BEFORE the observed issue.

There are also thoughts around the relationships of NO3, PO4, Alk, and PAR:

Relationship between NO3, PO4, Alk, and PAR

There was a very interesting thread on this: https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/light-alkalinity-nutrients.319223/ My takeaway was: Post in thread 'Light, Alkalinity, Nutrients.' https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/light-alkalinity-nutrients.319223/post-9454985 If these are the general...

www.reef2reef.com

So when I troubleshoot issues:
1. Is the tank mature enough for the type of coral?
2. What changes have been made to the tank in the last several weeks?
3. Does the NO3/PO4/Alk/PAR relationship look good?
4. Are parameters stable? Anything experiencing deviations or swings?
5. How is PAR? Any changes?
6. How is Flow? Any changes?
7. How are nutrients? Any changes?
8. Any disease, pests, CUC, or inhabitants that would negatively affect your coral?

Yeah those are things I also use when troubleshooting issues. The tank itself has been wet for over 5 years, however I did make some changes to it as I stated, which I don’t think re started the cycle or crashed anything bc I have had that happen before. My parameters are pretty darn stable, alk hasn’t swung by more than .10 in months and my no3 hasn’t bottomed out, my po4 has gotten low around .01-.03. PAR has been the same no changes. I could say flow has probably changed for algae growing on them and they’re just cheaper brands.
An important thing I feel to mention though is the lack of coralline that is growing. I used to pretty much have to fight it off the glass in certain spots and since I’ve moved I haven’t noticed it growing, except a few spots in my sump.

 

[arking_mark]

Just curious on the 3 fish you keep in the tank?

 

[ReeferMadness80G]

Just curious on the 3 fish you keep in the tank?

2 clowns and a lyretail anthias

 

[X-37B]

I’ve always wanted to try it hat KZ Flatworm stop but never have, I’ve heard a lot of good things about it. I think I will pick up some now with your advice and I’ll check out the eztrace also. Do you mean auto top off? Bc yes of course I run one, what’re you thinkin? I’m curious..

Thoughts?
The ez trace will bring up your Sulfer, Manganese, Iodine, and Boron that were tested low.
Make sure to read up on ez trace and how it came to be.
I would dose esv Strontium once a week.
The KZ is worth a good run. Get enough for 6 months.

For sticks I have found Stability is the key long term.
Temp 77-80
SG 1.026-1.027
Alk 6.5-7.5
Ca 400-440
Mag 1300-1400
No3<3
Po4 <0.1

10% WC once a month.
After many years 10% a month works well.
Dose trace.

I like close to sea level alk.

Some live rock is better than none.

Whatever parameters you run focus on keeping your values in range.

 

[minus9]

Yeah those are things I also use when troubleshooting issues. The tank itself has been wet for over 5 years, however I did make some changes to it as I stated, which I don’t think re started the cycle or crashed anything bc I have had that happen before. My parameters are pretty darn stable, alk hasn’t swung by more than .10 in months and my no3 hasn’t bottomed out, my po4 has gotten low around .01-.03. PAR has been the same no changes. I could say flow has probably changed for algae growing on them and they’re just cheaper brands.
An important thing I feel to mention though is the lack of coralline that is growing. I used to pretty much have to fight it off the glass in certain spots and since I’ve moved I haven’t noticed it growing, except a few spots in my sump.

I never like PO4 that low, especially with our test kits (and ICP). I also don't like using things like chemipure in a small tank. I think it's too aggressive and can strip away too much of the good stuff as well. I honestly would feed a little more, maybe add another fish or two and do weekly water changes. I'm also not a fan of KZ flatworm stop, as they don't tell you what's in it. I do know that iodine is part of it and depending on how much you're dosing, levels can go past NSW levels and cause issues.

 

[ReeferMadness80G]

Update: haven’t done anything different except for 2, 5 gallon water changes in 2 days. I raised po4 with feeding to .10 and no3 is at 5-10ppm. Looks like all sps is dying , even my most hearty colony of WD that I’ve had for about 6 months. I’m at a loss, thinking about tearing down the tank.

 

[cooltowncorals]

First thing I would verify is by looking at night make sure nothing is stinging them. I have had LPS (far away I thought) put out some crazy SWEEPER tentacles at night and kill things also pests are possible

My thoughts on the problem-you are doing full 5 gallon water changes weekly on a 29 cube where let’s just say optimistically you hold 30 gallons after displacement every week.

THATS 20 gallons a month out of 30 that means you’re changing 67% of your water a month. More isn’t necessarily better when it comes to water changes.

Also, I have never used fritz but if you’re changing that much water you shouldn’t be having issues with trace elements unless it’s low in the mix.

Most people aim for 20-30 percent a month for water changes with 40 percent (weekly 10 percent being on the high end).

most people’s also miss them from time to time.

with the combination of super high amount of water changes and the removal of substrate and rocks I think you most likely have a stability issue to much change

my advice is to stop doing water changes for a month.

then start doing 2 or 2.5 gallons a week and I would think about using a different salt mix if your inclined to switch.

 

[minus9]

Update: haven’t done anything different except for 2, 5 gallon water changes in 2 days. I raised po4 with feeding to .10 and no3 is at 5-10ppm. Looks like all sps is dying , even my most hearty colony of WD that I’ve had for about 6 months. I’m at a loss, thinking about tearing down the tank.

Sorry to hear. Sps can be tough, so don’t throw in the towel just yet. The easiest tank that I took care of was my 22g sps dominant tank. I kept it simple, 4g weekly water changes, dosed 2 part and dosed a little acropower. I started that tank with some live sand, old school Fiji live rock that a local store had brewing in their back room after tearing down their saltwater section. I had corals in it within a week of setting it up and it just took off.
The one thing that I’ll never do is use dry rock again, if I can’t get real ocean rock, then I would find a way to slowly seed rock from real ocean rock and that process would take a year before I trusted that rock. I think when you started removing rock and sand, you altered things and not in a good way. I personally feel that real ocean rock is worth its weight in gold and I would spend good money on live rock over an overpriced frag all day long. Biology and bacteria are far too important, that I would never use dry rock as my main source of my biological filtration. I’m sure there are plenty of tanks out there that are thriving on dry rock, but the process to get those tanks in stable thriving conditions, is more daunting than people think.

 

[arking_mark]

"Moving day was December last year, The move went great and shortly after I moved everything over to the new place, I took out the rest of the rock that I wanted to and replaced it with the man made reef rock I got from WWC which I was told would not leach anything."

This seems the most likely culprit. It sounds like the current tank is mostly seasoned new rock. If this is the case, the biom is probably not mature enough to support SPS.

I moved from a 30gal tank to a 100gal tank. Took some sand and rock from the old tank and it took over a year before it would consistently support SPS and about 18 months before SPS was thriving.

None of the SPS in the old tank, including a WD, survived the move. Surprisingly, my Jellybean Chalice was the lone survivor.

I don't think the tank needs a tear down...just time.

 

[ReeferMadness80G]

First thing I would verify is by looking at night make sure nothing is stinging them. I have had LPS (far away I thought) put out some crazy SWEEPER tentacles at night and kill things also pests are possible

My thoughts on the problem-you are doing full 5 gallon water changes weekly on a 29 cube where let’s just say optimistically you hold 30 gallons after displacement every week.

THATS 20 gallons a month out of 30 that means you’re changing 67% of your water a month. More isn’t necessarily better when it comes to water changes.

Also, I have never used fritz but if you’re changing that much water you shouldn’t be having issues with trace elements unless it’s low in the mix.

Most people aim for 20-30 percent a month for water changes with 40 percent (weekly 10 percent being on the high end).

most people’s also miss them from time to time.

with the combination of super high amount of water changes and the removal of substrate and rocks I think you most likely have a stability issue to much change

my advice is to stop doing water changes for a month.

then start doing 2 or 2.5 gallons a week and I would think about using a different salt mix if your inclined to switch.

Thank you for the advice! Sounds like a solid plan and something I can definitely try, I’ve had my suspicions using fritz, the tank was started with it so I just continued using it. I’ve used only Red Sea blue bucket in the past, can you recommend a Salt?

 

[ReeferMadness80G]

Sorry to hear. Sps can be tough, so don’t throw in the towel just yet. The easiest tank that I took care of was my 22g sps dominant tank. I kept it simple, 4g weekly water changes, dosed 2 part and dosed a little acropower. I started that tank with some live sand, old school Fiji live rock that a local store had brewing in their back room after tearing down their saltwater section. I had corals in it within a week of setting it up and it just took off.
The one thing that I’ll never do is use dry rock again, if I can’t get real ocean rock, then I would find a way to slowly seed rock from real ocean rock and that process would take a year before I trusted that rock. I think when you started removing rock and sand, you altered things and not in a good way. I personally feel that real ocean rock is worth its weight in gold and I would spend good money on live rock over an overpriced frag all day long. Biology and bacteria are far too important, that I would never use dry rock as my main source of my biological filtration. I’m sure there are plenty of tanks out there that are thriving on dry rock, but the process to get those tanks in stable thriving conditions, is more daunting than people think.

I think you’re right, the affects of it just didn’t show up for months I suppose. I too have successfully kept a small nano SPS dominant tank 14g at that. So I know the struggle, but this I just can’t put my finger on, everything seems to be optimal, stable parameters for months since the move, no idea

 

[ReeferMadness80G]

"Moving day was December last year, The move went great and shortly after I moved everything over to the new place, I took out the rest of the rock that I wanted to and replaced it with the man made reef rock I got from WWC which I was told would not leach anything."

This seems the most likely culprit. It sounds like the current tank is mostly seasoned new rock. If this is the case, the biom is probably not mature enough to support SPS.

I moved from a 30gal tank to a 100gal tank. Took some sand and rock from the old tank and it took over a year before it would consistently support SPS and about 18 months before SPS was thriving.

None of the SPS in the old tank, including a WD, survived the move. Surprisingly, my Jellybean Chalice was the lone survivor.

I don't think the tank needs a tear down...just time.

Thank you for sharing your experience, it does sound a lot like mine and kind of reassures me I just need to wait for the tank to catch back up after adding the new rock.