My SPS dominant 180g

[CoralWealth]

well I now have some hair algae and turf algae issues so I am going to be adding more snails and hermits from everyone suggestions. I also am going to add a tuxedo urchin and hope that it doesnt move my frags around(they are glued down really well so I doubt it but who knows)

I am also going to add a small amount of GFO (1/2-1 cup) on friday to help reduce the initial levels, that way I can hopefully keep feeding how much I am but get the algae under control.

 

[mcarroll]

I am also going to add a small amount of GFO

What levels are your N and P tests coming back with now?

 

[CoralWealth]

What levels are your N and P tests coming back with now?

theyre so low because the algae is taking them up so its pointless at this point really till I get all the algae gone, then I will know the true value of them.

 

[bif24701]

Also forgot to mention nudibranchs....they're dedicated and will only eat aiptasia. Unfortunately they are both expensive and a delicacy in most reef tanks – they simply disappear into the rocks never to be seen again in many cases. Not great odds considering the cost. Still, they could work....especially on a new-ish tank where there might not be so many predators.

I have had very good luck with the nudis, I bought 8 in my 180 that had hundreds of aiptasia. Took a few months but they multiply and took care of it.

 

[Palyzoa]

Do you have a full tank shot thats recent?

 

[mcarroll]

theyre so low because the algae is taking them up so its pointless at this point really till I get all the algae gone, then I will know the true value of them.

I think you're thinking about a different case of algae than dinoflagellates – maybe you're thinking of a normal, healthy green algae bloom.

Dino's and normal green algae are not similar....almost opposite in fact.

Blooming dinoflagellates do not use dissolved nutrients – they grow and eat bacteria instead.

It's the bacteria they are farming that are using up the nutrients in your case – not the algae.

This distinction is important because bacteria can harvest nutrients down to much lower levels than other microbes, and the bacteria and dino's together are preventing everything else from growing – including the algae you'd rather have!

You dosing N and/or P is to provide dissolved nutrients to those non-dino/non-bacterial critters that need it....the ones you want to replace your dino's....and the ones that are responsible for creating a stable reef environment.

The catch is that the dino's and their bacterial "farming" are working against you, so it can take a considerable amount of N or P to correct things and to stop the dino's from blooming. (They go back to behaving like photoautotrophs when they are not starving.)

Allowing things to continue along on your current trajectory is unlikely to help anyone but the dino's.

 

[mcarroll]

I have had very good luck with the nudis, I bought 8 in my 180 that had hundreds of aiptasia. Took a few months but they multiply and took care of it.

Were those 8 put into a loaded reef, or was this before fish and other inverts went in?

Pretty amazing if that happened on a loaded reef....especially with "only" eight of them! (Probably >$100 worth of nudi's, hence quotes.)

 

[bif24701]

Were those 8 put into a loaded reef, or was this before fish and other inverts went in?

Pretty amazing if that happened on a loaded reef....especially with "only" eight of them! (Probably >$100 worth of nudi's, hence quotes.)

Yup, fully loaded. I have a CCB, peppermint shrimp, Neon Dottyback. It took about two months before I started to see them in larger numbers and toward the end there must have been well more than 100, maybe 200-300. I think I paid for 8, got 10 and it was $100+shipping so total was $130-140 or something like that. I was very afraid in the beginning about predation. I have large Pukani rock that has deep deep holes for them to live and hide. They are totally nocturnal in the start and rarely seen. Put after 2-3 months they were everywhere, really cool. They made it onto and into every crevice where aiptasia were or could have been. None were safe. Now 8 months later I've started to see aiptasia again. I saw the last nudi about three months ago. I plan to order them again and hope this time they reach and equilibrium so they live and reproduce continually. I noticed that coral foods and broadcast feeding prompts aiptasia growth and reproduction by a huge factor. If possible or willing to do the extra work try spot feeding slowly both fish and corals.

 

[CoralWealth]

well I have some bad levels that I just realized after reading a fellow reefers recent thread on another site.

I recalibrated my refractometer and my salinity is around 1.029 so way too high.

I have not tested phosphates or nitrates in forever. Just tested both and I got 27 with my ulr hanna which is around 0.1 which I would think is too high too.

Nitrate is where I am really surprised as it tested at 64 on the Red Sea test which is the highest it goes so for all I know it is higher.

I think this is all from the updates snails and urchins getting rid of the algae that was uptaking these. Now I just have the cheato in the sump, skimmer and gfo.

What do you guys recommend doing? I am most worried about lowering my p04 and nitrates because I can slowly lower the salinity pretty easily with just switching some tank water with ro/di till I get to 35ppt/1.026

I do not want to do too much because the corals still look good and have good PE, but I would like to increase their colors and growth

 

[mcarroll]

my salinity is around 1.029 so way too high.

When I accidentally let my salinity creep that high (1.030, actually) it seemed to induce a bloom of chrysophytes.

Didn't we talk about your tank having some kind of strange algae a week or few back?

Did your salinity creep up that high, or did your device cause the salinity to spike that high all at once?

Just tested both and I got 27 with my ulr hanna which is around 0.1 which I would think is too high too.

Nope. And in context of your N, it's practically zero. Any significant growth of any critter would use up that miniscule amount of P in your water. Remove your GFO and watch the growth and coloration commence and the N start to dip. Might even see a spurt of growth on your chaeto.

Nitrate is where I am really surprised as it tested at 64 on the Red Sea test which is the highest it goes so for all I know it is higher.

I would not spend a single iota of energy worrying about this. Worrying about levels is not useful...you hear that quite a bit.

Worry about big changes to levels. You don't hear that part too often, but your tank agrees with this assessment. Corals and algae both respond unfavorably to big changes. Sounds like corals and algae are mostly under control, so this would not appear to be a worry for you.

Now I just have the cheato in the sump, skimmer and gfo.

As I said, remove the GFO and you should be fine. If green algae (hopefully!!!) starts to take off, be prepared to add on some CUC...nothing dramatic though. Small additions.

What do you guys recommend doing?

Tell me if any of that makes sense or needs clarification!

I do not want to do too much because the corals still look good and have good PE, but I would like to increase their colors and growth

Our idea of looking good and PE may not actually be the greatest indicators of health. There are some indications that "looking good" in the popular sense might actually be a stress response to light/heat/etc and that more PE than usual may actually be a stress response to starvation.

But if you're noticing they aren't growing that much AND that colors are actually muted or pastel, then those are somewhat established signs of nutrient deprivation.

Corals are limited in that they don't reproduce sexually in aquaria – even really nice, really large aquaria. That's our limit.

But they do grow really well in home aquaria – from the tiniest aquarium to the largest aquarium.

If they aren't even growing in yours, then you know something is fundamentally wrong in the system.

Corals have more ways to eat and take in nutrients than almost any critter I can think of....it's phenomenal and it's not for nothing – they need nutrients to survive and (hopefully) to grow!

I don't remember, are you pretty well stocked for corals by now?

 

[CoralWealth]

When I accidentally let my salinity creep that high (1.030, actually) it seemed to induce a bloom of chrysophytes.

Didn't we talk about your tank having some kind of strange algae a week or few back?

Did your salinity creep up that high, or did your device cause the salinity to spike that high all at once?



Nope. And in context of your N, it's practically zero. Any significant growth of any critter would use up that miniscule amount of P in your water. Remove your GFO and watch the growth and coloration commence and the N start to dip. Might even see a spurt of growth on your chaeto.



I would not spend a single iota of energy worrying about this. Worrying about levels is not useful...you hear that quite a bit.

Worry about big changes to levels. You don't hear that part too often, but your tank agrees with this assessment. Corals and algae both respond unfavorably to big changes. Sounds like corals and algae are mostly under control, so this would not appear to be a worry for you.



As I said, remove the GFO and you should be fine. If green algae (hopefully!!!) starts to take off, be prepared to add on some CUC...nothing dramatic though. Small additions.



Tell me if any of that makes sense or needs clarification!



Our idea of looking good and PE may not actually be the greatest indicators of health. There are some indications that "looking good" in the popular sense might actually be a stress response to light/heat/etc and that more PE than usual may actually be a stress response to starvation.

But if you're noticing they aren't growing that much AND that colors are actually muted or pastel, then those are somewhat established signs of nutrient deprivation.

Corals are limited in that they don't reproduce sexually in aquaria – even really nice, really large aquaria. That's our limit.

But they do grow really well in home aquaria – from the tiniest aquarium to the largest aquarium.

If they aren't even growing in yours, then you know something is fundamentally wrong in the system.

Corals have more ways to eat and take in nutrients than almost any critter I can think of....it's phenomenal and it's not for nothing – they need nutrients to survive and (hopefully) to grow!

I don't remember, are you pretty well stocked for corals by now?

Thanks for all that. I do have a good amount of corals but I do not want my nutrients as high as they just tested and I believe they are that high with all the algae I have growing in the sump along with the cheato which I do not want. Why would I hope that green algae hopefully takes off? That is kind of the exact opposite of what I want.

I have a good amount of CUC in the DT and it is why I currently have no algae anywhere. I also think that I could possibly not be getting the best colors because my nutrients are too high and are browing out my corals which I have seen documented by some of the best reefers on here and multiple places which is why I want to reduce my levels more. Also because I want to continue to feed the tank a ton to have a lot of energy going in the tank but also export a lot so hopefully that will continue growth.

I definitely am getting growth, just not at the pace I would like which is again why I think the high nutrients are hindering this.

 

[mcarroll]

I'm still trying to get a grasp on the whole situation...

The first link below is the thread I was thinking of earlier.

What happened to that stuff growing in the pics? Did you confirm it was dino's or just hair algae with detritus in it, or what? May just have been an effect in the photo, but it looked slimy to me.

• Need help with this algae

Did it really turn out to be a side-efffect of the wrasse keeping your CUC at zero? (Very possible, just wondering if that turned out to be it.)

So now that there's a CUC the algae is just staying mowed?

I also found this:

• SPS STN from the tips, looking very brittle. NOT ALK SWING

This tank is still <1 year old, right?

If I were you, and I wanted the numbers a lower I'd do a couple more big water changes....but you're still going to have an imbalance of N and P.

If things still don't straighten out in the long term then I would suggest a slight change in direction:

Deal with any remaining imbalances through addition – not subtraction.

If your P is high, add N.
Vis versa too: If N is high, add P.​

This plays into the growth strategies of your corals, green algae and all the allies you need for a healthy tank.
It's not really possible to do harm with these additions – "worst case scenario" is an extra flush of green algae growth for your CUC.​

"Subtraction" would just be all the common "artifical" nutrient reducers for phosphate and nitrate, including GFO, carbon dosing and the rest. They are tools that each have their uses, but they're best to stay away from for everyday use – especially when a tank is still maturing. It's possible to do harm with these tools.

I do have a good amount of corals but I do not want my nutrients as high as they just tested

I believe they are that high with all the algae I have growing in the sump along with the cheato which I do not want.

If the algae is growing and the corals are growing, then the nitrates won't stay high for long. They go fast!!

Maybe just do some water changes?

Why would I hope that green algae hopefully takes off? That is kind of the exact opposite of what I want.

Green algae grows and uses excess nutrients.
Herbivores mow it down and turn those nutrients into "stable organism".
(If you're missing the second step, then the nutrients wind up back into the water.)
Plus, all other algae are worse and almost nothing eats them.

Green is a win:win and the alternatives algae that will grow in its place are all lose:lose.

I have a good amount of CUC in the DT and it is why I currently have no algae anywhere.

That's one possible reason – and the best one.

Is the wrasse still "on the prowl" BTW?

I also think that I could possibly not be getting the best colors because my nutrients are too high and are browing out my corals

The tank is so new and has had issues, so it's pretty hard to point the finger in only one direction – but that is possible.

I definitely am getting growth, just not at the pace I would like which is again why I think the high nutrients are hindering this.

Nutrients = growth

Look at pH and oxygenation issues, or possibly nutrient deprivation to cause that.

High pH and oxygen saturation are two things that can actually slow down growth because the – they r e t a r d the coral's photosynthesis abilities. Under normal conditions, nutrients cannot do anything like this.

So perhaps boost P if needed....use that nitrate up. At most I'd do some water changes..but still have to watch that P doesn't dip too far or the remaining N will still be "stranded".

 

[CoralWealth]

I'm still trying to get a grasp on the whole situation...

The first link below is the thread I was thinking of earlier.

What happened to that stuff growing in the pics? Did you confirm it was dino's or just hair algae with detritus in it, or what? May just have been an effect in the photo, but it looked slimy to me.

• Need help with this algae

Did it really turn out to be a side-efffect of the wrasse keeping your CUC at zero? (Very possible, just wondering if that turned out to be it.)

So now that there's a CUC the algae is just staying mowed?

I also found this:

• SPS STN from the tips, looking very brittle. NOT ALK SWING

This tank is still <1 year old, right?

If I were you, and I wanted the numbers a lower I'd do a couple more big water changes....but you're still going to have an imbalance of N and P.

If things still don't straighten out in the long term then I would suggest a slight change in direction:

Deal with any remaining imbalances through addition – not subtraction.

If your P is high, add N.
Vis versa too: If N is high, add P.​

This plays into the growth strategies of your corals, green algae and all the allies you need for a healthy tank.
It's not really possible to do harm with these additions – "worst case scenario" is an extra flush of green algae growth for your CUC.​

"Subtraction" would just be all the common "artifical" nutrient reducers for phosphate and nitrate, including GFO, carbon dosing and the rest. They are tools that each have their uses, but they're best to stay away from for everyday use – especially when a tank is still maturing. It's possible to do harm with these tools.




If the algae is growing and the corals are growing, then the nitrates won't stay high for long. They go fast!!

Maybe just do some water changes?



Green algae grows and uses excess nutrients.
Herbivores mow it down and turn those nutrients into "stable organism".
(If you're missing the second step, then the nutrients wind up back into the water.)
Plus, all other algae are worse and almost nothing eats them.

Green is a win:win and the alternatives algae that will grow in its place are all lose:lose.



That's one possible reason – and the best one.

Is the wrasse still "on the prowl" BTW?



The tank is so new and has had issues, so it's pretty hard to point the finger in only one direction – but that is possible.



Nutrients = growth

Look at pH and oxygenation issues, or possibly nutrient deprivation to cause that.

High pH and oxygen saturation are two things that can actually slow down growth because the – they r e t a r d the coral's photosynthesis abilities. Under normal conditions, nutrients cannot do anything like this.

So perhaps boost P if needed....use that nitrate up. At most I'd do some water changes..but still have to watch that P doesn't dip too far or the remaining N will still be "stranded".

Okay so to answer all these, the SPS dying was a long time ago and that was from an alk burn while I was on vacation and that is all gone and taken care of, which I did not think was an alk swing but I noticed it later that was the cause. I also think the cause was the TDS was 3 and I think heavy metals were getting into the tank so I switched all the RO/DI and added another DI and that has never happened again and I ALWAYS make sure TDS is 000 now.

The wrasses are out of this tank and in the FOWLR now because I wanted to be able to keep snails, etc without them killing them. Only wrasse I will add from now on are probably fairy wrasse as I have heard good things.

The algae that was in that picture was both hair algae but also turf algae and the only thing that got rid of the turf algae was the urchins and they did it pretty fast.

I added 2 urchins and a good amount of snails who have literally along with my tangs got rid of every single spec of algae in the DT. I would highly highly recommend urchins to everyone, they are the best part of CUC. So before I was showing no nutrients because of this algae uptaking the phosphates and nitrates.

Then once the CUC got rid of all the algae etc, my phosphates and nitrates are high right now but I do not want to do any major changes and I am going to test everything again tomorrow before and after a water change.

 

[mcarroll]

Algae Safe
Snails and reef fish are "algae safe" as far as I know...the graze it down to barely visible or invisible, but do not eliminate it.

Urchins
Urchins are extremely aggressive on the substrate they're grazing, I've even heard of them chewing through power cords and other "soft" plastic or rubber items that might grow coraline algae....or any algae. Which type of urchin did you get?

Hypothesis
If the two urchins literally eradicated your green algae growth, then that could explain why your nutrients don't appear to be getting used up.

Any Conclusions?
So maybe this is your case: green algae in the display wasn't merely grazed down, but it was eradicated. Your live rock may have been denuded. That means a lot more than just your algae is gone. It could even mean that a signifiant portion of your denitrification capacity was even disrupted.

If so, that could explain the "extra" N and P you have on your tests.

Have you tested for ammonia or nitrites by any chance? If you already have the kits, I would try them just to see.

Nutrients are remaining in the water rather than going into a new flush of growth or being exported as N2.

If neither N or P were accumulating before the algae disappeared, then we ought to be able to assume everything was nicely balanced.

But, now that's a 650:1 nitrogen to phosphorus ratio in your water....the ratio is probably higher than that since you couldn't get a complete reading!! I'm not sure the CUC's work entirely explains that.

Unless there's something else going on, that means your algae were "banking" serious nitrogen stores!! Not unheard of...and I guess here's a good potential example of it in action. (Maybe this explains why turf can hang on for so long without apparent nutrients available!)

With N-levels that high, I'm almost in favor of a limiting nutrient (Fe, Si, ...) as the explanation for having N stay that high. Double check your P and N tests one more time to make sure those readings are solid.

Unless you're going by Triton where you can possibly point a finger at something that would suggest a more specific solution, I'd recommend water changes again. Both to restore any limiting nutrient and to knock back that N level a little until natural systems start kicking back in again.

 

[CoralWealth]

Algae Safe
Snails and reef fish are "algae safe" as far as I know...the graze it down to barely visible or invisible, but do not eliminate it.

Urchins
Urchins are extremely aggressive on the substrate they're grazing, I've even heard of them chewing through power cords and other "soft" plastic or rubber items that might grow coraline algae....or any algae. Which type of urchin did you get?

Hypothesis
If the two urchins literally eradicated your green algae growth, then that could explain why your nutrients don't appear to be getting used up.

Any Conclusions?
So maybe this is your case: green algae in the display wasn't merely grazed down, but it was eradicated. Your live rock may have been denuded. That means a lot more than just your algae is gone. It could even mean that a signifiant portion of your denitrification capacity was even disrupted.

If so, that could explain the "extra" N and P you have on your tests.

Have you tested for ammonia or nitrites by any chance? If you already have the kits, I would try them just to see.

Nutrients are remaining in the water rather than going into a new flush of growth or being exported as N2.

If neither N or P were accumulating before the algae disappeared, then we ought to be able to assume everything was nicely balanced.

But, now that's a 650:1 nitrogen to phosphorus ratio in your water....the ratio is probably higher than that since you couldn't get a complete reading!! I'm not sure the CUC's work entirely explains that.

Unless there's something else going on, that means your algae were "banking" serious nitrogen stores!! Not unheard of...and I guess here's a good potential example of it in action. (Maybe this explains why turf can hang on for so long without apparent nutrients available!)

With N-levels that high, I'm almost in favor of a limiting nutrient (Fe, Si, ...) as the explanation for having N stay that high. Double check your P and N tests one more time to make sure those readings are solid.

Unless you're going by Triton where you can possibly point a finger at something that would suggest a more specific solution, I'd recommend water changes again. Both to restore any limiting nutrient and to knock back that N level a little until natural systems start kicking back in again.

I am doing a water change tonight and I am going to test all levels after. Another reason why they may be so high that i just thought of. I turkey basted my sand bed like normal to make it clean and I like doing it to get the detrious into the filter socks into the sump. That may have raised my P and N, I really am not worried about it at this point as everything is going good and I have a feeling it was just a fluky test. All the corals have good PE and majority are gaining better colors.

 

[bubbaque]

How’s the tank doing? Pics?

 

[CoralWealth]

How’s the tank doing? Pics?

I definitely need to take some updated pictures.

Tank is doing good, everything is stable and growing. PE just isnt where I want it to be but I think that is from the butterfly fish I added as it is great at night. I just ordered fluconazole as I have some very annoying turf algae from a mistake in the beginning of this setup when I thought I had no nutrients when I had too many.

So I also added some siporax and upgraded my skimmer to bubble magus b11 which has been an absolute beast, thing is huge.

I also have started dosing biodigest, bioptim and NOPOX to help get my nutrients under control. The NOPOX definitely makes the skimmer pull some nasty junk and since I have started to dose the bioptim my cheato as been growing a lot more then it even was before.

I had an INSANE aiptasia outbreak from laziness and then when I decided to go about it, it was too late for aiptasia x. So I bought a copperband butterfly, raccoon butterfly, and a kliens butterfly along with some peppermint shrimp. They almost got rid of all the aiptasia in less then a month. They definitely do hurt the PE of my SPS some, as I see them pick at the base every once in awhile so I will probably remove them all besides the copperband once I no longer see the aiptasia in my tank.

I will try to get some pictures sometime this week to update.

 

[CoralWealth]

 

[CoralWealth]

just bought a calcium reactor, I am excited to get this thing fired up hopefully sometime in the next week.

 

[bubbaque]

Which one did you get?