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Video shows a very pretty part of the tank. I'm sure the rest is just has nice but wanted to say thank you for sharing. Really well done.
" MY WHITE SAND METHOD "
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Video shows a very pretty part of the tank. I'm sure the rest is just has nice but wanted to say thank you for sharing. Really well done.
Cruz_Arias
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Hydrogen Sulfide can suffocate.
Cruz_Arias
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Micro-nanos have a higher surface area than just surface agitation alone. That is a scientific fact.
And what happens if Hydrogen Sulfide meet oxygen rich water? Hydrogen sulfide can be a problem during power breaks if the surrounding water gets very low in oxygen but not if there is oxygen rich water around. The old RDSB (remote deep sand bed) was a way of avoiding this problem. My construction with the DSB in the refugium acts the same way. Can you show any indications that old tank syndrom is caused by hydrogen sulphide ?
Sincerely Lasse
Very good point. I think that beds causing sulfide issues are the 1% of old tank syndrome
The 99% are the tanks that cannot beat an invasion or are suffering mass coral issues after time and cannot be undone, the losses continue. Working in partial steps doesn't fix things, that type of uncontrolled nature is how I define OTS. They begin to compensate for nitrate stores by adding counters like GFO, pellets. And the shock change kills corals in the stripped water column but still pumps out invader feed from the footing area
The reason I claim we've beaten OTS in pico reefs is because keeping them detritus free stops 100% of that, and it's not possible for a bed that is free or low in detritus to produce dangerous sulfides for the rare times they do.
No malady exists in our tiny test vessels whatsoever, simply from having no accumulations out of balance. Getting a one gallon mixed sps and Lps reef out past ten years reveals what larger tanks endure over thirty years, its speed learning. to test sandbed biology before we age greatly, anyone here can set up a dense pico reef w dsb, change only 20% water etw, never touch the bed, and by year four the invasions will blanket the whole tank. Conversely, your manually cleaned option lives without biological lifespan, we show, and corals never get diseases they continually grow and must be heartily pruned to keep room. Outcomes don't vary for pico reef keepers following the plan, they're the same outcomes biologically.
Right now we can source out posts from long term members here about how a powerhead came dislodged, aimed into the untouched bed, and killed everything. That wasn't mere detritus causing that, or all these oxic sand stirrers w be posting probs not success
They're liberating, not storing, aerated detritus from upper layers. something measurably destructive exists in the untouched bed. it must stay stratified not to kill. It must remain hands off, no rock slide accidents, especially no power outages, and no touch, unoxidzed detritus or POM is very dangerous.
From here on out, advocates of hands off bed should be required to open their volley with a cell video of them reaching into the depths of their bed with a giant handful from the bottom, and releasing that down into the tank with pumps on. If they're dealing in neutral mineralized waste, no harm will come about and the massive clouding was really just good marine snow feed. That's how adding a wrasse would manifest so we should be able to model that on a ten year untouched bed in someone's 150 gal
Ok who's first
The 99% are the tanks that cannot beat an invasion or are suffering mass coral issues after time and cannot be undone, the losses continue. Working in partial steps doesn't fix things, that type of uncontrolled nature is how I define OTS. They begin to compensate for nitrate stores by adding counters like GFO, pellets. And the shock change kills corals in the stripped water column but still pumps out invader feed from the footing area
The reason I claim we've beaten OTS in pico reefs is because keeping them detritus free stops 100% of that, and it's not possible for a bed that is free or low in detritus to produce dangerous sulfides for the rare times they do.
No malady exists in our tiny test vessels whatsoever, simply from having no accumulations out of balance. Getting a one gallon mixed sps and Lps reef out past ten years reveals what larger tanks endure over thirty years, its speed learning. to test sandbed biology before we age greatly, anyone here can set up a dense pico reef w dsb, change only 20% water etw, never touch the bed, and by year four the invasions will blanket the whole tank. Conversely, your manually cleaned option lives without biological lifespan, we show, and corals never get diseases they continually grow and must be heartily pruned to keep room. Outcomes don't vary for pico reef keepers following the plan, they're the same outcomes biologically.
Right now we can source out posts from long term members here about how a powerhead came dislodged, aimed into the untouched bed, and killed everything. That wasn't mere detritus causing that, or all these oxic sand stirrers w be posting probs not success
They're liberating, not storing, aerated detritus from upper layers. something measurably destructive exists in the untouched bed. it must stay stratified not to kill. It must remain hands off, no rock slide accidents, especially no power outages, and no touch, unoxidzed detritus or POM is very dangerous.
From here on out, advocates of hands off bed should be required to open their volley with a cell video of them reaching into the depths of their bed with a giant handful from the bottom, and releasing that down into the tank with pumps on. If they're dealing in neutral mineralized waste, no harm will come about and the massive clouding was really just good marine snow feed. That's how adding a wrasse would manifest so we should be able to model that on a ten year untouched bed in someone's 150 gal
Ok who's first
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Travis Stewart
Valuable Member
I've always talked about this in the fb groups because i get so many questions and compliments on my sand bed ....well here's my method....note: I've never tried this on a tank older than 3 years !!!! I'm well aware of the problems that can occur on older tanks...this is a "DAILY" method i use to keep a good look sand bed and to release toxins "BEFORE" they build up....a Preventive Measure .
You need to section your tank off in 3 stages....Start in stage "1" stirring your sand..."ONLY STAGE 1" for 7 days....on day 8 Start stirring Stage 1 & 2 ....Stir stage 1 & 2 for 7 more days....on day 15 stir Stage 1, 2, & 3 for 7 more days ...in 21 days you will have completely stirred your whole sandbed and released the built up toxins slow enough to not cause a problem...if your tank is over 1 year old...i advise adding the appropriate amount of Chemipure Elite or Chemipure Blue to alleviate excess toxins...once you complete this 21 day process just stir your sand daily and it will always remain white and pretty.
What kind of mechanical filtration are you running?
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Interesting ideas. I have toyed with the idea of starting a tiny reef aquarium. You’ve given me an idea. By starting a bunch of them, it might be a way to inexpensively end the debate of “to vacuum or not to vacuum”.
I am of two minds about the notion of old tank syndrome. It sounds plausible but rarely is there suffucient information about these events, except for age, that would permit a good guess at the cause of the failure. Maybe it is a good catchall term for “mysterious end”.
Have you actually studied the composition of sandbed pore water? A fascinating subject. It is funny/interesting that no one ever gets around to monitoring it on a regular basis even though seemingly many aquarist feel there is an unnamed terror lurking between the sand grains, just waiting to wipe out their livestock
Full disclosure: I don’t vacuum, and if I must, disturb it only in small sections at one time. I do occassionaly check up on my pore water composition - the results never alarmed me. I “believe” not disturbing this big biofilter is a good policy.
https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/the-official-sand-rinse-thread-aka-one-against-many.230281/page-14
that's how we study the pore water but I catch your drift about the microbial scale I bet its got interesting details, life forms etc no debate there. That big thread is neat because replicating a deep-access sandbed thread of 12 pages where nobody accounts for detritus at all, ends in doom
also, I want to point out something regarding pico reefs and sandbeds/stirring non stirring
there are examples of non stirring pico reefs, long terms, you should see as that's an opposing angle to how I run them
Maritza the vase reef, do friend on facebook and look at that. not ever rinsed sandbed/6 yrs/one gallon, best sps pico in the world.
so we have a long term pico reef unstirred, and one that's very old and stirred blasted occasionally, how are both working if one way is best? Answer, ratios.
both systems will work, and they both work in large tanks too. ratios: if I was tracking the new reefs of a hundred members all in chat, Id want them rinsing bc its less possibility for variance. im willing to trade off their manual work for the constant report of no invasion and no recycling and coral health b/c we can pack in so much more feed into the active reef vs the classic one
none of the rinsed sandbeds get invaded, so 100 out of 100 new reefers will not be invaded if they rinse.
one or two of them is artistic and able enough to not have to rinse and get the same results, but not 99, after three years. I recommend rinsing because it works always as a method, and it has tight variance on outcomes. its not the exclusive way./
Rinsing is why there's only one long running deep sand access thread, non rinsers wont run those/results vary wildly
that's how we study the pore water but I catch your drift about the microbial scale I bet its got interesting details, life forms etc no debate there. That big thread is neat because replicating a deep-access sandbed thread of 12 pages where nobody accounts for detritus at all, ends in doom
also, I want to point out something regarding pico reefs and sandbeds/stirring non stirring
there are examples of non stirring pico reefs, long terms, you should see as that's an opposing angle to how I run them
Maritza the vase reef, do friend on facebook and look at that. not ever rinsed sandbed/6 yrs/one gallon, best sps pico in the world.
so we have a long term pico reef unstirred, and one that's very old and stirred blasted occasionally, how are both working if one way is best? Answer, ratios.
both systems will work, and they both work in large tanks too. ratios: if I was tracking the new reefs of a hundred members all in chat, Id want them rinsing bc its less possibility for variance. im willing to trade off their manual work for the constant report of no invasion and no recycling and coral health b/c we can pack in so much more feed into the active reef vs the classic one
none of the rinsed sandbeds get invaded, so 100 out of 100 new reefers will not be invaded if they rinse.
one or two of them is artistic and able enough to not have to rinse and get the same results, but not 99, after three years. I recommend rinsing because it works always as a method, and it has tight variance on outcomes. its not the exclusive way./
Rinsing is why there's only one long running deep sand access thread, non rinsers wont run those/results vary wildly
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@brandon429 Sent me to this thread
Currently in the process of setting up my first tank, the Fluval 13.5 nano, I'll be using both the live rock and sand from TBS. The rock and sand are shipped in the water they're cultivated in off the coast of Florida, and the sand is taken from the plot right next to the rock. Brandon suggested that this method would be ideal to deal with detritus while maintaining the life in the sand.
A few questions:
1. Considering that I'm formulating a plan to put into action right off the bat, can I start by stirring the entire sand bed since I'll have a "new" sand bed?
2. If I understand correctly, you stir the sand bed/turkey baste your rock, and then rely on manual filtration (in my case, filter floss) to capture the stirred up detritus rather than siphoning it out with a water change while it's suspended?
3. Should I still install a typical CuC?
Thanks
Currently in the process of setting up my first tank, the Fluval 13.5 nano, I'll be using both the live rock and sand from TBS. The rock and sand are shipped in the water they're cultivated in off the coast of Florida, and the sand is taken from the plot right next to the rock. Brandon suggested that this method would be ideal to deal with detritus while maintaining the life in the sand.
A few questions:
1. Considering that I'm formulating a plan to put into action right off the bat, can I start by stirring the entire sand bed since I'll have a "new" sand bed?
2. If I understand correctly, you stir the sand bed/turkey baste your rock, and then rely on manual filtration (in my case, filter floss) to capture the stirred up detritus rather than siphoning it out with a water change while it's suspended?
3. Should I still install a typical CuC?
Thanks
OP
OP
blusop
Active Member
@fulltang .... I'd wait until the ugly brown diatoms appeared and your tank has finished the initial cycle... it won't hurt anything to start day 1 but there wouldn't be any toxins to release at the initial setup of your system ... and by all means add a cuc ... they help with detritus and their waste is good food for corals
it’s possible for old school setups to sit in place but here’s what he left out
if his rocks slide down and create a storm his whole tank dies
if a powerhead dislodges his whole tank dies
during a power outage a fully eutrophic sandbed / unexported is taking o2 at many times over what a clean or bare bottom system can run
Luck runs those systems, not planning.
weather luck, hardware luck, external vs internal locus of control.
and lastly, not possible to write a flowchart to reproduce the method, Dr Shimek made one and the hobby still chose bare bottom or stick stirred, for reasons above.
Anyone tries old school hands off nowadays using white base rock and Fiji pink sand, you won’t be reefing in a year you’ll be facing the uglies nonstop and hating reefing, you’ll have the opposite of control.
as long as the stratification remains and it remains lucky untouched, the tank might go ten more years in place.
the tank would be impossible to move and relocate without surgical access, or it would all die.
see how the result is total loss if you break an eggshell? Who wants that type of reefing anymore. One mistake in a decade can kill the tank.
any stick stirrer here has a much more stable and less liable system. They can move, rock slide, powerhead dislodge and drop test and last longer in power outages. They rely less on luck. Stick stirrers have the stronger reefs, more controls in place to weather challenges
what the hands off reef/sandbed does have: the highest possible diversity per square inch, nearly complete internal feed production network, potential nitrate reduction resulting in less water changes -for that param, nitrate export- and lots of microbial diversity to ward off dinos (today’s top scourge) and fish disease competition.
the hands off system has positives for sure, it’s how we all learned to reef. The divergence came about because all that wasn’t as important to the masses as having a system that doesn’t crash, ever, but they fight dinos almost daily in posts. Always a tradeoff
if his rocks slide down and create a storm his whole tank dies
if a powerhead dislodges his whole tank dies
during a power outage a fully eutrophic sandbed / unexported is taking o2 at many times over what a clean or bare bottom system can run
Luck runs those systems, not planning.
weather luck, hardware luck, external vs internal locus of control.
and lastly, not possible to write a flowchart to reproduce the method, Dr Shimek made one and the hobby still chose bare bottom or stick stirred, for reasons above.
Anyone tries old school hands off nowadays using white base rock and Fiji pink sand, you won’t be reefing in a year you’ll be facing the uglies nonstop and hating reefing, you’ll have the opposite of control.
as long as the stratification remains and it remains lucky untouched, the tank might go ten more years in place.
the tank would be impossible to move and relocate without surgical access, or it would all die.
see how the result is total loss if you break an eggshell? Who wants that type of reefing anymore. One mistake in a decade can kill the tank.
any stick stirrer here has a much more stable and less liable system. They can move, rock slide, powerhead dislodge and drop test and last longer in power outages. They rely less on luck. Stick stirrers have the stronger reefs, more controls in place to weather challenges
what the hands off reef/sandbed does have: the highest possible diversity per square inch, nearly complete internal feed production network, potential nitrate reduction resulting in less water changes -for that param, nitrate export- and lots of microbial diversity to ward off dinos (today’s top scourge) and fish disease competition.
the hands off system has positives for sure, it’s how we all learned to reef. The divergence came about because all that wasn’t as important to the masses as having a system that doesn’t crash, ever, but they fight dinos almost daily in posts. Always a tradeoff
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So i do like the look of sand but i didnt want the issues you described above so i added sand but just enough to cover the bottom... its extremely shallow.. like 2mm in depth of sand or less.. i stir it once ever 2-3 weeks
Then we think it will last indefinitely without poisoning your system or causing it to age in an advanced manner, well done
Diving or active bed turnover fish balance might do the same, but your method adds no bioload to the system.
*addendum
nobody can rightly claim to have a best method. In ten years something totally different might be the common way.
this aspect of disturbance vs nondisturbance and allowed stratification of waste is simply today’s most reproducible method.
if we start a hundred reefs totally hands off storage mode, the old way, then we know 75 are going to be problematic in the first year vs enjoyed. Posts in the nuisance algae forum and new tanks forum show all patterns from storage mode. What do we use to fix those reefs: the non storage mode.
so no way is better, and in-place self-balancing sandbeds that require no work are still what everyone wants. people need to continue work developing that approach, we don’t want it abandoned.
I myself have no free cash to be reef experimenting with, thats for bruce waynes
to have an absolutely repeatable fallback certain to work method, lowest loss of cash, keeping it clean or bare bottom currently wins per 100 tanks sampled after start. Even with uglies invasions from using dry rocks, bare bottom initially allows cleaning and sand itself can be added months later even to a big reef tank, we’d just pre rinse it all before adding so it’s cloudless. Going through uglies as bare bottom allows mass export of the uglies and maybe much less expression anyway, they hide in a new sandbed untouched for months per old sandbed rules.
staggered starts are also very, very strategic in sandbed works in my opinion. Adding sand much after rocks begin maturing is unique planning for the long term.
Stick stirring is the best ongoing anti aging method I’ve seen for large tanks once the sand is in place. The whole point is keeping mass cleared so you can cycle clean undegraded proteins through the system for coral feed and mass production with low storage.
Diving or active bed turnover fish balance might do the same, but your method adds no bioload to the system.
*addendum
nobody can rightly claim to have a best method. In ten years something totally different might be the common way.
this aspect of disturbance vs nondisturbance and allowed stratification of waste is simply today’s most reproducible method.
if we start a hundred reefs totally hands off storage mode, the old way, then we know 75 are going to be problematic in the first year vs enjoyed. Posts in the nuisance algae forum and new tanks forum show all patterns from storage mode. What do we use to fix those reefs: the non storage mode.
so no way is better, and in-place self-balancing sandbeds that require no work are still what everyone wants. people need to continue work developing that approach, we don’t want it abandoned.
I myself have no free cash to be reef experimenting with, thats for bruce waynes
to have an absolutely repeatable fallback certain to work method, lowest loss of cash, keeping it clean or bare bottom currently wins per 100 tanks sampled after start. Even with uglies invasions from using dry rocks, bare bottom initially allows cleaning and sand itself can be added months later even to a big reef tank, we’d just pre rinse it all before adding so it’s cloudless. Going through uglies as bare bottom allows mass export of the uglies and maybe much less expression anyway, they hide in a new sandbed untouched for months per old sandbed rules.
staggered starts are also very, very strategic in sandbed works in my opinion. Adding sand much after rocks begin maturing is unique planning for the long term.
Stick stirring is the best ongoing anti aging method I’ve seen for large tanks once the sand is in place. The whole point is keeping mass cleared so you can cycle clean undegraded proteins through the system for coral feed and mass production with low storage.
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Daniel@R2R
I wish we could sticky this because it’s making large tanks with sandbeds live longer than any other method in reefing, currently known or written about. They don’t have to take it apart to make it work correctly. Perhaps if possible maybe in the new tanks forum in place of the sandbed thread there, this one shows specific care actions for longevity
or even here main forum. I know tons of threads are offered for sticky there isnt room for scrolls of them so nbd if no new room. this one stands out due to repeatability and follow ups logged though if rotation time comes
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