" MY WHITE SAND METHOD "

[Larry L]

Monoculture is IMO the reason for OTS

I also have this opinion - over time there is a decline in variety of life, especially if you are not adding much new to the tank or are dipping everything before adding to the tank. I miss being able to get "real" live rock with all kinds of biodiversity (of course you risk adding bad with the good).

Detritus seems to be the new 42

Lasse++

 

[Lasse]

Cool. I just stirred one of the sections of my tank —- hopefully I don’t kill anything [emoji28]

IMO - Stirring the sand in the DT will not direct kill anything and it is not the same as chasing detritus everywhere. However - I prefer that my animals does my job of different reasons. The most important for me is the stress factor. If anyone goes this path - it is (IMO) a good idea to do it in a regular pattern and at the same time every day (or that schedule that fits best).

It is amusing how different types of animals have a perception of time - even corals - I have a friend who always fed his aquarium at 19:00 o´clock (when he come home from his job) and his sun corals always open up around 18:30. I normally feed my fishes late in the evening - my fishes always gatering together near the point there I always feed after 20:00 in the evening. especially if I pass by that corner and open the door to the fridge. After 20:00 my pipefish prefer the left corner - it is situated nearest my fridge

Sincerely Lasse

 

[brandon429]

Lasse

Edit/7 am
Well done work in the cyano challenge thread / proud to see the team jump on board like that

 

[JasPR]

On a similar but possibly over looked subject-- This hobby has trends and fads-- EVERYONE used metal halides and then they were no good and T-5 was the truth! Now slowly T-5's are being replaced by LED. And some are now adding back M.H.! well, along those lines there was a fad to remove all sand at one point and add 'miracle mud' to the sump. lots of snippets from science to make the idea should like the bomb! well, it is way to create 'old tank' syndrome hidden within your sump! REMOVE that mud, my friend

 

[Lasse]

I do not know if I´m following any trend - I have follow this path since I start reefing at home back in 2006. And 2001 I was one of a bunch of people starting a 1400 cubic meters aquaria with the Monaco method - it still works as I know. I am always dressed in straight jeans and a leather jacket since 1970 - every now and then I become fashionable but why change a winning concept?

Sincerely Lasse

And yes - I´m known as an early adapter

 

[JasPR]

I do not know if I´m following any trend - I have follow this path since I start reefing at home back in 2006. And 2001 I was one of a bunch of people starting a 1400 cubic meters aquaria with the Monaco method - it still works as I know. I am always dressed in straight jeans and a leather jacket since 1970 - every now and then I become fashionable but why change a winning concept?

Sincerely Lasse

And yes - I´m known as an early adapter

I was around when this method and thinking entered the hobby. In fact I was AT that first MACNA in Toronto. The trouble with that method is that it was new and limited in terms of time and multiple applications. The problem lies in two things- 1) the realities of a glass box of decaying water and 2) that bacteria does not work as it was envisioned in the 1970s-80s. New technology can now measure a biofilm down to an area the width of a human hair. And in that survey they find that a biofilm is not homogenous. It also has micro- environments within it. There are pH areas and well as oxygen areas that exist right beside aerobic populations. In addition, many needed molecules are deficient in some zones leading to a break up of certain species ( forming rafts that drift away) and encourage another species ( algae or heterotic bacteria species) to fill the void over time ( time bing the key). In the end, we should try and mimic nature and her natural processes- harness them. But we should not be diluted into thinking we can duplicate all stages and keep those stages in balance and harmony as they exist in the wild-- after all, it is a tiny glass box of salt water--

 

[Lasse]

I do use a method rather alike the Jaubert method but it is a more fast and controllable method - more like the Dymico filter method. IMO - in a anaerobic conditions and with lot of sludge and detritus - - talking about biofilms is rather meaningless. (however in aerobic conditions - the biofilm and its thickness of great importance.) but in anaerobic conditions - it is a bacteria all over. It is true that there is a lot of micro-environment - hence the demand of diversity even in the micro fauna. But you can control it and that we know more about it nowadays will help. For me it is important not to export the detritus outside the aquaria - but instead transport it where I want it to be. And I do not want it to settle (without any animals use it) in the DT. The method I use is a remote deep sand bed with a slow reversed flow - 10 - 20 % of my water a day. With the knowledge we have today and the tools we have for checking values - it is possible to build an ecosystem that is only depended of some food from the outside, light, energy for moving and aerate/gas exchange, inorganic nitrogen and a harvest of whatever. But if we should be able to do that - we can´t take away the resources - we need to find pathways for their recycling in the tank.

Sincerely Lasse

 

[Lasse]

way to create 'old tank' syndrome

I have still not get any explanation (theoretical or experimental) what this is and what cause it.

Sincerely Lasse

 

[JasPR]

I do use a method rather alike the Jaubert method but it is a more fast and controllable method - more like the Dymico filter method. IMO - in a anaerobic conditions and with lot of sludge and detritus - - talking about biofilms is rather meaningless. (however in aerobic conditions - the biofilm and its thickness of great importance.) but in anaerobic conditions - it is a bacteria all over. It is true that there is a lot of micro-environment - hence the demand of diversity even in the micro fauna. But you can control it and that we know more about it nowadays will help. For me it is important not to export the detritus outside the aquaria - but instead transport it where I want it to be. And I do not want it to settle (without any animals use it) in the DT. The method I use is a remote deep sand bed with a slow reversed flow - 10 - 20 % of my water a day. With the knowledge we have today and the tools we have for checking values - it is possible to build an ecosystem that is only depended of some food from the outside, light, energy for moving and aerate/gas exchange, inorganic nitrogen and a harvest of whatever. But if we should be able to do that - we can´t take away the resources - we need to find pathways for their recycling in the tank.

Sincerely Lasse

My friend, you are wishing for a perpetual motion machine- where all metabolites transfer to lesser metabolites and then turn to gases and nothingness. It can happen that way in the open ocean with currents and tides and a myriad of biological systems and unlimited species -- all in balance with one another thru evolution and the rejection of a void in nature. But not in closed glass box... the chain is limited, the species are limited and except for water changes, the fuel is missing. Mimic the biological reactions by all means, but be of a greater wisdom-- know the closed systems limitations

 

[sghera64]

I haven't touched my sand bed in 8 years. The only thing it's releasing is nitrate bubbles. When do you think "OLD TANK SYNDROME" will start? I think it's just another "OLD REEFERS MYTH"...

Ditto, my sand is 15 years old. When will I see OTS?

I’m my tank the sand grains are getting so small I have had some float away into the overflow . I have to add sand sometimes.

 

[Lasse]

My friend, you are wishing for a perpetual motion machine- where all metabolites transfer to lesser metabolites and then turn to gases and nothingness. It can happen that way in the open ocean with currents and tides and a myriad of biological systems and unlimited species -- all in balance with one another thru evolution and the rejection of a void in nature. But not in closed glass box... the chain is limited, the species are limited and except for water changes, the fuel is missing. Mimic the biological reactions by all means, but be of a greater wisdom-- know the closed systems limitations

I´m not asking for a perpetuum mobile because I will have both input and output of energy in one or another form. But it will create a biological system that can work for many years to come. Now it has run with no other exporting method than Chaeto and coral harvest for half a year. Before this it was 1.5 years with very dry skimming and som use of GFO. Explain for me what´s negative will happen in my aquaria that have zones for both anaerobic and aerobic biological processes ? For the moment I add PO4 and NO3 !!!

Sincerely Lasse

 

[KenO]

I decided to give this method a try. It was interesting that in my 9 gallon nano tank, as soon as I started to stir the sand both of my peppermint shrimp came out of hiding and immediately went to work going through the area I just disturbed. After about 15-20 minutes they disappeared back into the LR.

 

[srad750c]

12 years old this go round, sand has been in use around 16 years, vaccummed maybe 3 - 4 times and never the entire tank. Stopped vacuuming cause I was removing too many of my critters. NO3 has to be dosed to maintain a level of 1.0 ppm. PO4 runs less than .074 ppm unless I use a specific brand of coral food. I have all but stopped using it. It’s not pretty by any means but it’s one less thing to maintain. With all the mushrooms lying on bottom, not much I can do anyway.

 

[Jay1661]

Who came up with the whole, don't touch the sandbed method? When I first started reefing, i read about how you shouldn't stir up the sandbed yada yada yada.. But that we should have snails, and starfish and gobies to help strip up the sandbed. Wait, WHAT!? Don't touch sandbed but buy this group of live stock to do it for you, because if YOU stir up the bed, YOU release toxins. I'm sorry but that logic never stuck with me. Therefore I vacuum religiously.

I don’t ever touch my sand in my 30 gallon. I have plenty of starfish and nassarius snails that do that for me and my sandbed is as clean as the day I bought it. Our 10 gallon on the other hand is disgusting, half the age of my 30 gallon and I have to clean that sand bed like crazy.

 

[RichtheReefer21]

So much can be learned in this one thread... Great dialogue and mature deliberation and cross-examination.

Keep it going... I am soaking up this knowledge like a Sea Hare munching on a green hair algae bloom due to a stirred sand bed. ;Hilarious

 

[shred5]

Ditto, my sand is 15 years old. When will I see OTS?

I’m my tank the sand grains are getting so small I have had some float away into the overflow . I have to add sand sometimes.

I have seen tanks with sand bed 20 years old.

As far as OTS there are so many theories, I have seen articles, talks at IMAC and MACNA etc.. I have seen heavy metals blamed because rocks can bind some, Sandbeds, Live rock getting chocked to the point it does not work, neglect, plumbing gets sponges, bacteria, tube worms or what ever in it slowing flow down, diversity disappears after a while. etc.. But I have seen people replace parts of the bed, Live rock etc and still get it.

It does exist, I have been in the reef hobby since the late 90's and have seen it.
I have seen tanks 20 years old and nothing changed, one day the tank looks great and next day it is on a unrecoverable decline. I think it is allot of things and maybe a combination of it all. I think the time frame depends on how well you took care of the tank, if you let it go for a period.

I do not think we see it much any more because people are in and out of the hobby so fast. How many 20 year old tanks are there? How many 15 year old tanks are there?
Some people do get tanks to last allot longer or indefinably but that does not mean it does not exist. Lots of diseases out there that affect humans and not everyone get them but it does not mean it does not exist.

 

[Scott Campbell]

I have seen tanks with sand bed 20 years old.

As far as OTS there are so many theories, I have seen articles, talks at IMAC and MACNA etc.. I have seen heavy metals blamed because rocks can bind some, Sandbeds, Live rock getting chocked to the point it does not work, neglect, plumbing gets sponges, bacteria, tube worms or what ever in it slowing flow down, diversity disappears after a while. etc.. But I have seen people replace parts of the bed, Live rock etc and still get it.

It does exist, I have been in the reef hobby since the late 90's and have seen it.
I have seen tanks 20 years old and nothing changed, one day the tank looks great and next day it is on a unrecoverable decline. I think it is allot of things and maybe a combination of it all. I think the time frame depends on how well you took care of the tank, if you let it go for a period.

I do not think we see it much any more because people are in and out of the hobby so fast. How many 20 year old tanks are there? How many 15 year old tanks are there?
Some people do get tanks to last allot longer or indefinably but that does not mean it does not exist. Lots of diseases out there that affect humans and not everyone get them but it does not mean it does not exist.

Do you think we don't see it as much these days because of Triton and similar lab tests? Seems like OTS could be absolutely anything that slowly gets out of whack over time until it eventually reaches a toxic level. I was dosing NOPOX and noticed a gradual rise in Molybdenum every Triton test. Took me a bit to figure out it was coming from the NOPOX. And Molybdenum is a good thing in moderation. Just apparently not something my tank inhabitants make much use of. 10 or 15 years of increasing Molybdenum in ignorance and perhaps it crashes my tank. The ability to discover and catch these issues before they become toxic is a wonderful change in the hobby.

Another observation from my 30 year old tank - I used to grow 15 or 20 different types of macro-algae. And they would all grow and die off in unexpected cycles. Sometimes I wouldn't see a particular algae for years and then it would just appear out of nowhere and start growing again. That doesn't seem to much happen for me any more. But now I keep everything relatively stable with a Triton test every 3 months. In retrospect, I think the different macro-algae types were off-setting all the imbalances that were occuring in my tank. Imbalances that I was completely oblivious about. Which is perhaps why I have been lucky enough to avoid a tank crash or OTS these last 30 years. If and when the tank became imbalanced there was always some algae that could take advantage of the imbalance, grow out of control for a period of time and basically re-set the tank.

 

[shred5]

Do you think we don't see it as much these days because of Triton and similar lab tests? Seems like OTS could be absolutely anything that slowly gets out of whack over time until it eventually reaches a toxic level. I was dosing NOPOX and noticed a gradual rise in Molybdenum every Triton test. Took me a bit to figure out it was coming from the NOPOX. And Molybdenum is a good thing in moderation. Just apparently not something my tank inhabitants make much use of. 10 or 15 years of increasing Molybdenum in ignorance and perhaps it crashes my tank. The ability to discover and catch these issues before they become toxic is a wonderful change in the hobby.

Another observation from my 30 year old tank - I used to grow 15 or 20 different types of macro-algae. And they would all grow and die off in unexpected cycles. Sometimes I wouldn't see a particular algae for years and then it would just appear out of nowhere and start growing again. That doesn't seem to much happen for me any more. But now I keep everything relatively stable with a Triton test every 3 months. In retrospect, I think the different macro-algae types were off-setting all the imbalances that were occuring in my tank. Imbalances that I was completely oblivious about. Which is perhaps why I have been lucky enough to avoid a tank crash or OTS these last 30 years. If and when the tank became imbalanced there was always some algae that could take advantage of the imbalance, grow out of control for a period of time and basically re-set the tank.

Triton is too new, how would we know yet? Also depends if something is binding it would not show up on Triton till it is released anyway.
Triton test are a good thing and I know people who have been alerted to equipment that was rusting or corroding so it would help with heavy metals. So there is no doubt Triton may help prevent this if it is just something with metals or trace elements.
I once had a Chinese pump that was not fully encased in epoxy and what a mess it was, I could not figure out why the tank was suffering. I did have poly-filters telling me something and probably saved me.
I picked the skimmer pump up and rust just pored out. I always run poly-filters now just in case.

Also it does not test for everything either.

As far as algae when I got in the hobby it was way different. We grew macros in the tank for control of nutrients.
It was not uncommon to see more macros in a tank than coral. Algae coming back probably has to do with nutrient swings, just a guess.
Allot of algae release spores.
I think allot the people in the hobby now that have had tanks along time actually have more problems with lack of nutrients. I know I do so that could be why we see that less.
We also see more dinos now than ever.

Just opinions.

I wish I kept all my saltwater monthly's from back then so people could see what it was like back in the day.

 

[Scott Campbell]

Triton is too new, how would we know yet... Also depends if something is binding it would not show up on Triton till it is released anyway.
Triton test are a good thing and I know people who have been alerted to equipment that was rusting or corroding so it would help with heavy metals. So there is no doubt Triton may help prevent this if it is just something with metals or trace elements.
I once had a Chinese pump that was not fully encased in epoxy and what a mess it was, I could not figure out why the tank was suffering. I did have poly-filters telling me something and probably saved me.
I picked the skimmer pump up and rust just pored out. I always run poly-filters now just in case.

Also it does not test for everything either.

As far as algae when I got in the hobby it was way different. We grew macros in the tank for control of nutrients.
It was not uncommon to see more macros in a tank than coral. Algae coming back probably has to do with nutrient swings, just a guess.
Allot of algae release spores.
I think allot the people in the hobby now that have had tanks along time actually have more problems with lack of nutrients. I know I do so that could be why we see that less.
We also see more dinos now than ever.

Just opinions.

I wish I kept all my saltwater monthly's from back then so people could see what it was like back in the day.

All good points.

 

[Lasse]

It does exist, I have been in the reef hobby since the late 90's and have seen it.
I have seen tanks 20 years old and nothing changed, one day the tank looks great and next day it is on a unrecoverable decline. I think it is allot of things and maybe a combination of it all. I think the time frame depends on how well you took care of the tank, if you let it go for a period.

That even old tanks can crash - that´s true - but from this to say that there is a certain syndrom just because of age is for me rather confusing.

Sincerely Lasse