Need help identifying disease

Jedi Knghit · May 31, 2019

I've noticed my Royal Gramma scratching on the sand and other objects in the tank since Wednesday night. Tried to catch her to do a FW dip to determine if it is flukes or not, but she is a slippery little devil and hides in the smallest holes in my rock. I'll give it one more try and then start pulling rock. Possibly some white spots (Ich?) on the Gramma.

The Gramma was added 3 weeks ago. Added a shrimp and a couple hermits 5 days ago. Everyone is eating well. In fact, today is the best I've seen her eat since we added her.

Water params
Salinity - 1.024 Hanna
Temp: 77.4
Ammonia: 0 Salifert
Nitrite: 0 Salifert
Nitrate: 7 Salifert
PH: 7.9 Salifert
Phospate: .2 Salifert

Can anyone see anything other symptoms that I might be missing in these pics or video?

Jedi Knghit · May 31, 2019

Well, I managed to get her without tearing out the rocks and did the FW dip. I saw something white and black come out of her mouth during the dip , but it seemed bigger than I expected flukes to be. I failed to get a pic because I couldn't find it after I netted her out and back into the tank.

While straitening out the powerhead, I must have hit a dead spot behind a rock. I noticed what I assume were a couple strands of feces. at least a half inch long. One white and solid, one white and stringy, another brown.

I am starting to second guess my newb decision not to QT.

Mastiffsrule · May 31, 2019

Sorry about the troubles.

Sounds like a few things going on. Some internal parasites along with maybe flukes. And hard to see the pix but I can see white spots. Can’t see clear enough to distinguish ich from brook. Plus my diagnostic skills are not wheel wheelhouse

Let’s bump and see if #reefsquads around. Maybe @HotRocks or @ngoodermuth

ngoodermuth · May 31, 2019

It didn’t look like this, right? Just making sure:

I think I would give the fish a ruby reef rally bath, and follow with metroplex in QT. Food soak metro or general cure as well for the white-stringy poop.

If the spots are still there, could be ich. It’s hard to discern from the photo...

Jedi Knghit · Jun 1, 2019

Yeah, the gramma is still shy so it is hard to get decent pictures of her.

No, it didn't look like your picture. She was laying on her side at the bottom. Whatever it was, it definitely came out of her mouth and looked slightly larger than I expected from pictures of flukes and it mostly black and a little white.

I started stocking for a QT process, so I have the metro, kanaplex, focus, parzaipro, copper power, and a hanna copper tester on hand. I'll hit up a couple of LFS and see about getting some Ruby Reef Rally. If I can't find any locally, it will take a few days to get some. Anything else I could do in the interim with on-hand meds?

Mastiffsrule · Jun 1, 2019

How is it going?

It sounds like you did the FW did correct. It may help to do another one, usually 4:30 or just below 5 minutes I think is recommended. It should help with flukes and temporarily release ich. If you have the metro or general cure already can’t hurt to start that in the food for the white-stringy poop.

Jedi Knghit · Jun 1, 2019

No luck sourcing the Rally locally, so I ordered from Amazon and it should arrive Monday. Glad I ventured out instead of calling. I checked the two LFS I normally visit and a third new one. It was a small store, but they had an impressive selection of food, dry goods and fish.

The gramma is still scratching, and I think the clowns may be scathing too. Seems like they are targeting the gills when they do it. I thought about giving the clowns a FW dip, but they had other plans. Not seeing any white spots or skin issues on any of the fish. I have salt mixing for the 10g QT.

I decided to dose the DT with Prazipro on the off chance it is flukes. I didn't think it could hurt. I have a HOB filter running with floss only, powerhead rippling the surface, and an air stone for good measure.

Any issues using Metro/Focus in food with Prazipro in the water?

Can you use metro/focus with frozen foods or just dry food?

Mastiffsrule · Jun 1, 2019

I can’t mention is you can use the metro focus with the prazipo. The frozen food will not soak up the meds since it already has water content in it. The dry pellet flake would be best

Mr. @Mjrenz is the bomb about meds. He Manufacturer’s his own at this point.

Let’s see what he thinks

Mjrenz · Jun 1, 2019

Mastiffsrule said:
I can’t mention is you can use the metro focus with the prazipo. The frozen food will not soak up the meds since it already has water content in it. The dry pellet flake would be best

Mr. @Mjrenz is the bomb about meds. He Manufacturer’s his own at this point. Let’s see what he thinks

LOL, I'm not an expert but sometimes I play one on r2r! (I'm definitely not an expert but I can answer this question). It's fine to use frozen food if you get rid of the water after it melts, I just soak it up with a paper towel. Use a binder like seachem focus at 1:1, unflavored gelatin or agar can also be used, make sure to let it soak for about 30 minutes before feeding. It's also a good idea to mix in a few drops of selcon and vita-chem with a drop of garlic to mask the taste of the medication

If you can't find rally locally then api fungus cure can be used instead in a bath

When using prazi make sure to aerate like crazy as it will greatly reduce the dissolved oxygen in the water, I see you're already doing that though

Edit : when mixing the medicated food the amount of metro or general cure (general cure is better because it treats internal parasites and worms) to use is about 1/8 tsp at 1:1 with a binder to about 1 tbsp of food. Feed only as much as the fish will eat and the leftover can be kept in the fridge for 3 to 5 days. It will be obvious when it's bad. Feed that for 10 to 14 days. Also it is ok to use with Prazi in the water

Mjrenz · Jun 1, 2019

Also @Jedi Knghit, welcome to the forum! It's always great to see new members!

Bryson.bobby · Jun 1, 2019

Welcome!

Jedi Knghit · Jun 6, 2019

It's been 5 days since I dosed Prazipro in the DT and I hadn't noticed any scratching in a few days. However, I think I saw my Royal Gramma flashing. Is that flashing in the video clip?

I am planning to do a 25% water change tomorrow and dose Prazipro in the DT again. I have not seen any white spots, so I am still thinking flukes. Should I be concerned that the Prazipro isn't working if she is flashing?

I have not seen any white stringy poop in a few days, so I guess that is progress.

Mariette · Jun 6, 2019

Yes. I’d call that flashing.

Mjrenz · Jun 6, 2019

There's a lot of prazi resistant flukes now, do the second dose to take care of any hatchlings and after 24 hours catch the fish and do another freshwater dip. If you still see flukes after that then you'll need to try another treatment

Jedi Knghit · Jun 7, 2019

I think I saw some flashing from the clowns today too. No discernible spots or skin abnormalities, maybe a little bit of faster breathing? The Royal Gramma barely came out of its hiding spot and didn't eat, but I went ahead and put the second dose of Prazi in. I'll give one of them a FW dip tomorrow evening to check for flukes again.

If I find flukes, what is the best course of action to treat them? hyposalinity? If so, what is the target? I've seen 1.09 and 1.11 in various posts.

If I don't see flukes, should I assume ick? If so, move to QT and start ramping up copper power? What level is safe to start at?

Mjrenz · Jun 7, 2019

Jedi Knghit said:
I think I saw some flashing from the clowns today too. No discernible spots or skin abnormalities, maybe a little bit of faster breathing? The Royal Gramma barely came out of its hiding spot and didn't eat, but I went ahead and put the second dose of Prazi in. I'll give one of them a FW dip tomorrow evening to check for flukes again.

If I find flukes, what is the best course of action to treat them? hyposalinity? If so, what is the target? I've seen 1.09 and 1.11 in various posts.

If I don't see flukes, should I assume ick? If so, move to QT and start ramping up copper power? What level is safe to start at?

Hyposalinity is very effective at treating flukes and so is a 12 hour bath in fenbendazole. Hypo will also kill most strains of ich but not all. 1.009 is the best level to use but you need to be very careful not to drop below that and use an accurate refractometer to measure salinity.

Did you feed the medicated food for possible internal parasites?

Jedi Knghit · Jun 7, 2019

I have a Hanna salinity tester. Hopefully, that is accurate enough.

Yes, I started with metro that I had on hand and switched to GC after a trip to an LFS.

Mjrenz · Jun 7, 2019

I don't have any personal experience with the Hanna, it's never a bad idea to have more than one tool to measure the salinity in hypo because it's dangerous for the fish if it falls below 1.009 and can be ineffective above 1.010 for ich and 1.011 for flukes.

The prazi will be finished doing its work after 24 hours so if you see signs of low oxygen, like fast breathing, you can do a water change then to get it out of the tank. I think the best thing to do is find out if the prazi worked with the freshwater dip and take things from there (unless you see any other signs that there could be another issue)

ngoodermuth · Jun 7, 2019

Good advice so far, just want to make sure I’m clear on something though...

You did administer the second dose, correct? In 5-7 days any eggs on the fish would have hatched (prazi doesn’t kill the eggs) and the second dose should wipe them out before they are mature enough to lay more eggs.

However, if they just hatched (you said it was day 5 so the timeline is correct) he could be irritated from the newly hatched flukes.

If you haven’t done the second dose yet (and it’s still less than 7 days, otherwise you have to start over) I’d do that first, wait 5-6 days and THEN do the freshwater dip if he still seems to be scratching.

If you already did the second dose, chalk this up to a long week for me and just disregard [emoji12]