Need Help With ID- Dinos?

[TechnicalFisher]

@mcarroll my latest tests show N03 at 0.5 and PO4 at 0. Nitrate is down considerably this week from what had been a regular reading of 2.0 for the last couple of months.

Changed out to new GFO in my reactor two days ago and increased the amount to 2/3 of the BRS recommendation.

Interestingly, since my manual removal a few days ago the chrysos seem to be abating, not growing back on the clear areas and getting very pale in the few remaining areas. Wondering if this correlates to me starting up my refugium over the weekend, the new/increased GFO or both. At the same time, cyano has increased a bit on the sand bed.

 

[mcarroll]

If you're running GFO, you should only be running it for <24 hours to adsorb ONLY silicates.....I'm not sure, but you may want to run an even smaller quantity due to that frequency of rotation.

Spiking your PO4 to zero (nutrients in general too) is the opposite effect to what you're hoping for. 2ppm NO3 was not that much to begin with, especially if there was an excess of PO4.

Did you ever re-try the shaker test to make sure it's not dino's, BTW? Just shake or stir up a blob in a jar to disperse it and then see if it will recoagulate...maybe put it near/under a lamp.

You mentioned that your snails won't touch it in one post – that suggests the possibility of toxins.

For that reason, I'd keep your activated carbon in a smaller dose and changed out regularly (just like the GFO) for max. effectiveness.

This also suggests that it's going to be important to dose some nutrients to get past this situation.....probably some NO3 and Po4.

Target these levels for what seems to be the best recovery.....NO3: ≥5-10 ppm PO4: ≥0.10 ppm.....feel free to work your way up to those levels, but keeping them near-zero is very bad.

Some folks have had very good luck going more or less straight to those levels though. I think you mentioned you've been following Dinoflagellates – Are You Tired Of Battling Altogether? where quite a few folks have tried this so far.....the results are there, but still worth reading through so you know the variables in how some cases progressed vs others.

 

[TechnicalFisher]

Thanks @mcarroll for all of the info.

Tried the shaker test yesterday and the pieces stayed disbursed and did not coagulate. So assuming that chryso's what I'm dealing with.

Agreed that I need to raise nutrient levels. I've been increasing feedings to twice daily over the last several days. Any thoughts on sticking with increased feedings for a week or so to see how it plays out? I've recently added fish and was hoping that between that and some additional food I might see levels come up without dosing chemicals. Will
Also do as you suggest with altering GFO and carbon regimen.

Doing another manual cleaning today. Many of the areas I blew clear last week have stayed fairly clean, though it's definitely still in the tank. So appears perhaps to have slowed down.

 

[mcarroll]

@TechnicalFisher perhaps it has not been explored deeply enough as a potential tool, but extra feedings do not seem to have the same effect as liquid nutrient dosing.

Depending on your circumstance there's still a lot of room for experimentation within this regime. A LOT. Look at @taricha's posts on my dino thread for some eye-opening examples.

However, for a display tank folks are usually looking for the most direct route from A to B. (To put it mildly.)

So far, that means dosing N and P as needed to maintain a level.

Maybe dosing + some support activities.

The few cases of chrysophytes that I've seen so far have been resolved with a lot less nutrient dosing than what some oft he dino blooms have taken, BTW, so there's nothing wrong with taking your time getting up to those levels I mentioned. Still good target levels if it takes that much to get the Chrysophytes to recede.

 

[TechnicalFisher]

@TechnicalFisher perhaps it has not been explored deeply enough as a potential tool, but extra feedings do not seem to have the same effect as liquid nutrient dosing.

Depending on your circumstance there's still a lot of room for experimentation within this regime. A LOT. Look at @taricha's posts on my dino thread for some eye-opening examples.

However, for a display tank folks are usually looking for the most direct route from A to B. (To put it mildly.)

So far, that means dosing N and P as needed to maintain a level.

Maybe dosing + some support activities.

The few cases of chrysophytes that I've seen so far have been resolved with a lot less nutrient dosing than what some oft he dino blooms have taken, BTW, so there's nothing wrong with taking your time getting up to those levels I mentioned. Still good target levels if it takes that much to get the Chrysophytes to recede.

Great, thanks for the info on feedings vs dosing @mcarroll.

Looks like KNO3 is going to be the route I take. My issue at present is that over the last week my cyano has gone from a limited patch on one side of the tank to a tank-wide issue. I'm debating hitting it with H202 and am trying to decide whether that should occur before or after KNO3 dosing.

Some of the stuff I've read from @twilliard and @cowboy in the cyano threads seems to indicate that the cyano dieoff will raise N03 and PO4 levels during the 14-day H2O2 dosing cycle. That's got me leaning towards going after the cyano first, then seeing where my N03 and PO4 levels are before moving forward with KN03. Any thoughts greatly appreciated!

 

[mcarroll]

@TechnicalFisher you mentioned doubling the amount of food going into the tank a few posts back. If you didn't stop doing that, stop now.

If you want to increase feeding – which maybe a very good idea for other reasons – it's better under most circumstances to do it slowly to avoid causing a nutrient spike.

Feeding represents a spike in all nutrients. Dosing liquid nutrients is more of a correction in the scheme of all nutrients.)

That nutrient spike from feeding is likely to be behind the increase in cyano.

IMO on treatments
Forget about treating something like cyano that's literally helping your tank tank chemistry and merely indicating an imbalance that you can take care of with little effort. If it's really growing fast, that usually also makes it easier to scoop or siphon out of the tank, BTW. Just a thought.

If you want to treat regardless, you may have noticed how inconsistently the treatments like H2O2 get results – keep reading (here and elsewhere) if you didn't notice yet.

Most of those tests (including the cyano test itself) were on the fly and I don't know if they really figured anything out that wasn't already known – like that H2O2 and commercial treatments both work "sometimes" maybe even "a lot of times", and they re-confirmed that it's hard to know if they'll work for you.

That means a fair amount of time and effort are involved in going down this path, and possibly some failure/re-treatments – even following the plan.

One fact that I found really interesting from my own research is that cyano produces H2O2 on its own....possibly for self-defense, maybe other reasons. Mature mats can have a tremendous H2O2 processing ability thanks to a buildup of enzymes.

To be honest, there's a lot of detail missing from most of the miracle cure-oriented threads I've seen, so unless you're willing to do a lot of your own research to fill in the gaps, I would generally steer clear of all of them. There are very few exceptions to this, and none I know of that apply here.

In my own experience, any extra time and effort spent is better placed in research figuring out the root of the problem rather than figuring out a cure for a symptom.

Starting your N (and/or P) dosing sooner may have reduced the cyano spread somewhat or even prevented it, BTW. Remember you're dosing it a response to you test results. More random nutrient introductions like from algae die-off or (even from feeding) are not equivalent.

Cyano is only growing and using up those other available nutrients because there isn't enough available N for other critters to use it.

 

[TechnicalFisher]

@TechnicalFisher you mentioned doubling the amount of food going into the tank a few posts back. If you didn't stop doing that, stop now.

If you want to increase feeding – which maybe a very good idea for other reasons – it's better under most circumstances to do it slowly to avoid causing a nutrient spike.

Feeding represents a spike in all nutrients. Dosing liquid nutrients is more of a correction in the scheme of all nutrients.)

That nutrient spike from feeding is likely to be behind the increase in cyano.

IMO on treatments
Forget about treating something like cyano that's literally helping your tank tank chemistry and merely indicating an imbalance that you can take care of with little effort. If it's really growing fast, that usually also makes it easier to scoop or siphon out of the tank, BTW. Just a thought.

If you want to treat regardless, you may have noticed how inconsistently the treatments like H2O2 get results – keep reading (here and elsewhere) if you didn't notice yet.

Most of those tests (including the cyano test itself) were on the fly and I don't know if they really figured anything out that wasn't already known – like that H2O2 and commercial treatments both work "sometimes" maybe even "a lot of times", and they re-confirmed that it's hard to know if they'll work for you.

That means a fair amount of time and effort are involved in going down this path, and possibly some failure/re-treatments – even following the plan.

One fact that I found really interesting from my own research is that cyano produces H2O2 on its own....possibly for self-defense, maybe other reasons. Mature mats can have a tremendous H2O2 processing ability thanks to a buildup of enzymes.

To be honest, there's a lot of detail missing from most of the miracle cure-oriented threads I've seen, so unless you're willing to do a lot of your own research to fill in the gaps, I would generally steer clear of all of them. There are very few exceptions to this, and none I know of that apply here.

In my own experience, any extra time and effort spent is better placed in research figuring out the root of the problem rather than figuring out a cure for a symptom.

Starting your N (and/or P) dosing sooner may have reduced the cyano spread somewhat or even prevented it, BTW. Remember you're dosing it a response to you test results. More random nutrient introductions like from algae die-off or (even from feeding) are not equivalent.

Cyano is only growing and using up those other available nutrients because there isn't enough available N for other critters to use it.

OK, this all makes sense, thanks. So a final (for now) question, did you dose Spectracide or a food-grade potassium nitrate? I'm seeing a lot of conflicting stuff out there on whether stump remover has impurities and should be avoided. Upside is it's readily available and I could get started tonight barring those concerns.

 

[jwshiver]

OK, this all makes sense, thanks. So a final (for now) question, did you dose Spectracide or a food-grade potassium nitrate? I'm seeing a lot of conflicting stuff out there on whether stump remover has impurities and should be avoided. Upside is it's readily available and I could get started tonight barring those concerns.

I use Brightwell Aquatics NeoNitro. 500 ml for $8.99. https://www.bulkreefsupply.com/neonitro-balanced-nitrogen-supplement-brightwell-aquatics.html I personally wouldn't trust stump remover. I find it hard to believe they would use a quality food / pharmaceutical grade product for stump remover. From a business cost perspective why not use agricultural / industrial grade. I can't vouch for the purity of NeoNitro but I would trust it over stump remover.
BTW I have my PO4 up to 0.08 today and my NO3 holding at 5 and see an improvement. Darker brown and more blotchy in coverage. For the first time in months my Space Invader Pectinia had sweepers out last night and PE was better all around in most corals. Super excited!

 

[TechnicalFisher]

I use Brightwell Aquatics NeoNitro. 500 ml for $8.99. https://www.bulkreefsupply.com/neonitro-balanced-nitrogen-supplement-brightwell-aquatics.html I personally wouldn't trust stump remover. I find it hard to believe they would use a quality food / pharmaceutical grade product for stump remover. From a business cost perspective why not use agricultural / industrial grade. I can't vouch for the purity of NeoNitro but I would trust it over stump remover.
BTW I have my PO4 up to 0.08 today and my NO3 holding at 5 and see an improvement. Darker brown and more blotchy in coverage. For the first time in months my Space Invader Pectinia had sweepers out last night and PE was better all around in most corals. Super excited!

That's great to hear @jwshiver - I see that's available on Amazon What sort of dosage of the NeoNitro are you using? I'm a little wary of the stump remover and I've been having trouble finding food-grade potassium or sodium nitrate so the Neo may be just the thing I"m looking for.

 

[mcarroll]

OK, this all makes sense, thanks. So a final (for now) question, did you dose Spectracide or a food-grade potassium nitrate? I'm seeing a lot of conflicting stuff out there on whether stump remover has impurities and should be avoided. Upside is it's readily available and I could get started tonight barring those concerns.

IMO, get started tonight, but depending on your tank there might not be anything wrong with waiting if you wanted to get something else. DIY is what I used.

This will help:
A Nitrate Dosing Calculator For Better Tank Health (And Better Coral Color!)
(Seachem has their own calculator on their site, as well as apps for both smarphone platforms.)

 

[TechnicalFisher]

IMO, get started tonight, but depending on your tank there might not be anything wrong with waiting if you wanted to get something else. DIY is what I used.

This will help:
A Nitrate Dosing Calculator For Better Tank Health (And Better Coral Color!)
(Seachem has their own calculator on their site, as well as apps for both smarphone platforms.)

Thanks @mcarroll, as it turns out nowhere local carries Spectracide so I have to order online either way. Do you have any thoughts on/experience with the NeoNitro that jwshiver mentions?

 

[mcarroll]

Either would be just as good as the other. I think they are identical to stump remover, in fact. I certainly have no qualms about paying to get it premixed and with accurate dosage instructions!!!

 

[jwshiver]

That's great to hear @jwshiver - I see that's available on Amazon What sort of dosage of the NeoNitro are you using? I'm a little wary of the stump remover and I've been having trouble finding food-grade potassium or sodium nitrate so the Neo may be just the thing I"m looking for.

I started dosing two weeks ago with 5 ml NO3, 1 ml PO4 in morning and 5 ml NO3 , 2 ml PO4 in the afternoon and NO3 stayed around 1.0 and PO4 around 0.01 to 0.02. The second week I got more aggressive and was dosing 20 ml NO3, 10 ml PO4 thru the day because my numbers weren't moving. Interestingly last week my PO4 went up to 0.05 then crashed back to 0.01 while dosing 10 ml per day. Yesterday I dosed 20 ml of PO4. I always run my test before dosing in the afternoon. This morning I dosed 5 ml of NO3 and 10 ml PO4 and my readings this afternoon are NO3 5 and PO4 0.08. A few weeks ago I would have freaked out if my PO4 was that high! I'm not scared of dosing PO4 anymore! I plan on trying to stay about were I am or a little higher. If you are using a Hanna ULR there is an error range to be aware of. If you get a reading of 5 ppb or lower you could be at 0.00. This will get you to it in a round about way. You can find it in threads here on R2R as well. Hanna%20ULR%20Phosphorus%20Checker%20ppb%20to%20ppm%20phosphate%20conversion%20chart.pdf

EDIT: 120 gallon tank, 34 gallon sump. Net 100 gallons.

 

[TechnicalFisher]

Just got ICP testing results back from Triton. Most readings are in the green with a few notable exceptions:

Magnesium- 1202. I haven't been testing for it and suspect that this is what's been limiting growth/color in the few small sps frags I've initially added. Also wonder if that imbalance could have something to do with what's going on in the tank in terms of chryso/cyano. Wondering if I need to buy a magnesium supplement or can just get away with dosing epsom salt.

Phospates- .009. Confirms what I think we already knew on my nutrients being too low and we're working on in this thread.

Lithium- The biggest red flag at 455 ug/l. @Randy Holmes-Farley I see elsewhere where you reported levels in your own tank in the mid-300's. Is 455 a number that I need to be concerned about? From what I'm reading it is likely coming in on my salt mix (presently reef crystals) so don't know that water changes are going to resolve it. (And if you have any thoughts on the other issues noted here I'd greatly appreciate it!!!)

Iodine- Low at 11 ug/l. Wondering if I need to dose or if the Triton base elements will eventually get this in line.

Postassium is also a little low but I'm hoping that dosing KN03 might boost this.

Also showing slightly low values for strontium, molybdenum and manganese. Again, wondering if Triton base elements will eventually get this in line.

Interesting to note that silicates, which I figured must be driving my Chryso, are in the green.

So, anybody have any thoughts on whether any of this informs how I should proceed? Getting ready to start dosing KNO3 today. Here are full results:

 

[jwshiver]

Just got ICP testing results back from Triton. Most readings are in the green with a few notable exceptions:

Magnesium- 1202. I haven't been testing for it and suspect that this is what's been limiting growth/color in the few small sps frags I've initially added. Also wonder if that imbalance could have something to do with what's going on in the tank in terms of chryso/cyano. Wondering if I need to buy a magnesium supplement or can just get away with dosing epsom salt.

Phospates- .009. Confirms what I think we already knew on my nutrients being too low and we're working on in this thread.

Lithium- The biggest red flag at 455 ug/l. @Randy Holmes-Farley I see elsewhere where you reported levels in your own tank in the mid-300's. Is 455 a number that I need to be concerned about? From what I'm reading it is likely coming in on my salt mix (presently reef crystals) so don't know that water changes are going to resolve it. (And if you have any thoughts on the other issues noted here I'd greatly appreciate it!!!)

Iodine- Low at 11 ug/l. Wondering if I need to dose or if the Triton base elements will eventually get this in line.

Postassium is also a little low but I'm hoping that dosing KN03 might boost this.

Also showing slightly low values for strontium, molybdenum and manganese. Again, wondering if Triton base elements will eventually get this in line.

Interesting to note that silicates, which I figured must be driving my Chryso, are in the green.

So, anybody have any thoughts on whether any of this informs how I should proceed? Getting ready to start dosing KNO3 today. Here are full results:

I can tell you from my own personal experience with Iodine that I have seen a benefit in dosing it. In Mike Palettta's article "Following the Masters Part Two" he mentioned that if Stuart Bertram didn't dose Iodine that he would get bleaching at the base of some of his corals. Mike Paletta stated he was having the same problem and was going to start dosing it. When I read this I was having the same problem and already lost some corals completely. It seemed to be prevalent in tabling corals. I knew that my Iodine levels had been hanging around a very low 4.0 as an average on my previous 5 Triton test. I had nothing to loose so I followed the recommendations from Triton to bring the Iodine level up and the bleaching stopped almost immediately. Bringing my Iodine up was the only change made to the system at that time and I haven't had any issues with base bleaching since. My last Triton test showed I was at 52.0, and I dose 0.50 of Triton's Iodine every day.

As stated yesterday my PO4 was at 0.08. Today it is back down to 0.02 :mad:. This is very frustrating! NO3 still holding steady at 5.

 

[DesertReefBoy]

I honestly don't think raising your nutrients is the answer. I had a real bad case of dinoflagellates and raised my No3 from 5ppm to 30ish and raised my Po4 from 0.25 to 2. All this did was made my dinoflagellates grow faster. I ended up losing a few SPS corals in the process. It took about two months to get my nutrients that high. I also didn't do a water change during that time.

As soon as I lowered my nutrients mainly my Po4 my Dinoflagellates started changing colors. With a few large water changes my No3 sit around 10 (still working on getting them lower) and my Po4 is 0.04. Rowaphos in a reactor did a great job in lowering my Po4.

My dinoflagellates seemed to respond really well to lowering my Po4. I don't know if yours will respond the same way since it looks like your are sitting at 0.009. This could be a false reading due to your dinoflagellates up taking Po4 before you can test. It might not hurt to run a good GFO in a reactor and see what happens. I really liked how rowaphos worked for me.

I am a newer reefer. My tank has only been up for 2 years but I don't see how increasing nutrients will help. Maybe it does but what happens when you lower your nutrients. It seems like a quick fix (maybe) just like h202, bleach, chemi clean ect ect. Figuring out the cause will be better in the long run. At least that is how my mind works.

 

[mcarroll]

Bringing my Iodine up was the only change made to the system at that time and I haven't had any issues with base bleaching since. My last Triton test showed I was at 52.0, and I dose 0.50 of Triton's Iodine every day.

As stated yesterday my PO4 was at 0.08. Today it is back down to 0.02 :mad:. This is very frustrating! NO3 still holding steady at 5.

This is definitely interesting on an experimental level since whether there's a real use for iodine is apparently to some degree an open question.

But....

The core issue behind the bleaching is the lack of P available to the system. Lack of N can also be a real problem, but the effects are usually less pronounced in the short run. You certainly don't want to have both at or near zero!

Be persistent in the PO4 dosing until you start seeing results or until you start seeing the target level in the tests. (≥ 0.10 ppm PO4)

I had a real bad case of dinoflagellates and raised my No3 from 5ppm to 30ish and raised my Po4 from 0.25 to 2.

These facts alone make yours an oddball case of dino's – very interesting! But your nutrients were apparently never low, so raising them probably wouldn't have been part of a recommendation. (not sayin you asked for one; just sayin')

I don't remember if we already went through your case on the dino thread or elsewhere, but did you confirm your dino's with microscope pics? Other microorganisms can definitely put on the "brown snotty patch" act. Can you link me to a post or thread where a pic and/or this info lives currently?

 

[DesertReefBoy]

This is all I have on my phone. When I get home I'll check and see what I have on my laptop.

I just got a new phone and don't have the microscope samples anymore. I have a few others on here. I did the shake up test and it reclumped back together.

 

[DesertReefBoy]

The first picture was a weird green hair algae with the dino on top. I forgot to mention that.

 

[mcarroll]

Very strange indeed, but strange stuff happens! Looking forward to finding out more about this case!!!

It will be interesting to see which kind (or kinds) of dino's you had/have if you can find the 'scope photos.

If you don't mind, can you (also?) post them in Dinoflagellates – Are You Tired Of Battling Altogether?